This Needs Attention START SCREAMING

[littlejuniata]

http://www.flyfishersparadise.com/UBB/Forum3/HTML/000958.html

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

wow this does upset me. penn state does have a major obligation to not only protect the land but allow its use for recreational purposes. why in the hell did rendall give the land to penn state when the game commission was willing to pay so much more? look i understand the need for education but penn state has campuses all over the state. why not expand in a more devolped area. more people and you can always build up on what u already have. is bad enough we lost land in the stony vally, lets take some more from the people :evil: it boggles my mind why we know that is land is important to wildlife in the area and to the fishery. why not ruin that also :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x

 

[JackM]

jaybo, I deleted your post and one I put up here. I was not being a good moderator. Sometimes legitimate issues involve politicians and the world of politics, but when a post focuses on that and gives little attention to the legitimate issue, it should be removed to avoid eliciting responses such as mine. If you want to re-post about the issue, please leave out the political attacks. Thanks.

 

[FarmerDave]

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
wow this does upset me. penn state does have a major obligation to not only protect the land but allow its use for recreational purposes. why in the hell did rendall give the land to penn state when the game commission was willing to pay so much more? look i understand the need for education but penn state has campuses all over the state. why not expand in a more devolped area. more people and you can always build up on what u already have. is bad enough we lost land in the stony vally, lets take some more from the people :evil: it boggles my mind why we know that is land is important to wildlife in the area and to the fishery. why not ruin that also :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x

Sal, I think that one is obvious. Randell is not a friend of hunters and never was, and like many antis, couldn't see past the title even though others would also benefit.

 

[JackM]

Since trying to be a good moderator by eliminating the political jabs doesn't seem to work, I'll just couteract the reactionary misinformed posts by offering contrary evidence:

Jan. 27, 2006


GOVERNOR RENDELL SIGNS FIRST FAMILIES AFIELD BILL IN THE NATION
Measure Designed to Increase Hunting Ranks

N. VERSAILLES – Governor Edward G. Rendell today made Pennsylvania the first state in the nation to begin a mentored youth hunting program with the ceremonial signing of a bill designed to encourage young people to learn about hunting with their families. House Bill 1690 empowers the Pennsylvania Game Commission to create the program.

“Pennsylvania is well known for its hunting tradition. Not only is it an outdoor activity that brings families together, but it’s an economic asset for our state,” Governor Rendell said. “By signing House Bill 1690, Pennsylvania becomes the first to encourage our youth to try the sport without having to take hunter education. Now, as long as they are with a licensed hunter, youngsters can venture into the woods with just an apprentice hunting license.

Monday, September 22, 2003

GOVERNOR RENDELL CREATES ADVISORY COUNCIL ON HUNTING, FISHING, CONSERVATION

HARRISBURG: Governor Edward G. Rendell today signed an Executive Order establishing the Governor's Advisory Council on Hunting, Fishing and Conservation to provide advice on protecting, promoting and enhancing the outdoor heritage of the Commonwealth.

"Pennsylvania is blessed with a rich outdoor heritage and abundant natural resources," Governor Rendell said. "In addition, our outdoor recreational activities help support more than 100,000 jobs and provide significant economic benefits to our state. I am confident that the Council will provide an important voice in our efforts to not only maintain our resources for sportsmen and women, but see that we improve them as well."

Governor Rendell said the Council will consist of between 12 and 21 members, representing a broad-based group of stakeholders who have an interest in the wildlife resources of the Commonwealth. Members of the Council will be appointed to one-year terms and will serve until their successors have been appointed and qualified.

The Council will work with Robert Miller, the Governor's Advisor for Hunting, Fishing and Conservation. Miller advises the Governor on matters affecting sportsmen and the management of the Commonwealth's natural resources by state agencies. As the Governor's Advocate, Miller will act as a liaison between the Council and the Governor, making recommendations based on a consensus of opinion from Council members and presenting the Governor with the Council's policy recommendations.

Each year, nearly 2 million people fish in Pennsylvania. Residents and visitors combined to take some 18 million fishing trips in the Commonwealth annually. The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service and the American Sportfishing Association estimate fishing and fishing-related activities generate more than $1.6 billion for Pennsylvania's economy each year. Hunting also is a major Pennsylvania tradition, as the state sold 1,017,154 general hunting licenses in 2002.

The Executive Order also creates the Governor's Youth Council for Hunting, Fishing and Conservation to help enlist a new generation of individuals committed to protecting, promoting and enhancing the state's outdoors heritage.


Both sound like friendly gestures to me.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

look jack politics are always a touchy subject and agree they sould b left off board. either way this is a big mistake. friend of hunters or not......the land has unquie attributes that the wildlife need. but it also contains one of our most famous fisheries.
this is retarded. give the land to the public and let the game commission have it.........our children need more public land. if they allowed the game commission to buy it at a pretty penny it would have been a win win situatuion. they get more $ and we get more land. but since u started it.....

GOVERNOR RENDELL CREATES ADVISORY COUNCIL ON HUNTING, FISHING, CONSERVATION

wheres the council now! must be sleeping or to busy having meetings than to save this plot of land. good job! pfft

ok im not a big fan of his ......still waiting for a property tax break i was promised.

then again i hate all of those poloticains. one lie after another so what do we expect.

hey lets borrow against future monies that the turnpike will make to help our roads :roll: this gives me an idea.....lets borrow against future money the pfbc will make and start buying easments.lol

all i can say is have u driven down 78 in the middle off winter ;-)

 

[jaybo41]

i didn't realize the entire first post was a political attack. parts of it perhaps, but could they not have been edited, rather than having the entire post deleted?

anyway...

the article speaks for itself, that's probably all i should have said to begin with. it's just brutal and it does not seem to be a friendly gesture to me. regardless of past gestures, this one is NOT sportsman friendly.

 

[JackM]

The problem is, jaybo, that I'm not good at moderating the substance of posts. I would rather fight with you over your political statements and I initial posted an argumentative reply. I actually went to bed and then got back up because I felt like I had shirked my responsibility to keep political arguments off the board. I did not feel comfortable censoring your reply because if I took out the political attack you leveled at the Governor, very little was left of your post and I did not want to be criticized for altering your message because of my own feelings of disagreement with your attack. Thus, I decide to remove my argumentative post and your post and let you have an opportunity to restate your opposition to this plan for the penetentiary property without the political attack.

No sooner did I make that decision and take that action, I was confronted with FarmerDave's post which was calmer in its negativity toward the Governor than you were, but still, I believe, crossed that line between commenting on the issue and creating a political side issue. That's when I decided to try the other tact.

In any case, I am wondering whether you (or Sal or FarmerDave) did any reading about the issue other than the linked article which was essentially written by a Sierra Club spokesman? Do you know anything beyond that about the Governor's role in the decision or his reasons for it? If not, it is irresponsible and unfair to malign him personally in the way you did.

 

[FarmerDave]

Putting guns in the hads of children without proper safety training? Oh yea, that's a good one Jack. :roll:

Kids always could accompany their parent while hunting, but they just couldn't buy a license or carry a gun until they had hunter safety training. And now they can hunt as long as they are with a licensed adult (note that it no longer has to be a parent of gardian according to this)? OK, you can put a gun in your 8 year old's hands and send him out hunting with an 18 year old. Real smart.:roll: Does he even have a clue about hunting?

And the second one? If he was actually a friend of hunters he wouldn't need a Governors advisory council on hunting and fishing. And where was this council during all this? It looks to me like just more government and lip service to give the appearance that he is a friend of hunters. Actousn speak louder than words my friend. He knows he needs votes from some hunters in order to stay i office. So, what you have is an advisory council, and they still did all that? Oh yea, he is a real froend to hunters alright. :roll:

 

[ryanh]

OK I will bite....What happened in Stone valley? Are you talking about Lake Perez? The wild life center? The experimental forest with Red Pines or Conservation Leadership School? The last has done more to turn out environmental stewards than anything else PSU has ever done. Are there any other CLS'ers on the board here??

As for why does it have to be in State College when they own so much land across the state. The answer to that is that all of the Doc's are there. Most of the branch campi are specialized towards disciplins other than Ag. Main Campus is the Ag area.

I for one see the demise of Spring looming in the horizon and it is not due to Penn State. That road is the nail in the coffin.

Also, not to be a spokesmen for Penn State....All of their other experimental forests and farm plots are pretty well managed.

This may not be as bad as it seems on the surface.

 

[Maurice]

FarmerDave wrote:
Putting guns in the hads of children without proper safety training? Oh yea, that's a good one Jack. :roll:

Kids always could accompany their parent while hunting, but they just couldn't buy a license or carry a gun until they had hunter safety training. And now they can hunt as long as they are with a licensed adult (note that it no longer has to be a parent of gardian according to this)? OK, you can put a gun in your 8 year old's hands and send him out hunting with an 18 year old. Real smart.:roll: Does he even have a clue about hunting?

And the second one? If he was actually a friend of hunters he wouldn't need a Governors advisory council on hunting and fishing. And where was this council during all this? It looks to me like just more government and lip service to give the appearance that he is a friend of hunters. Actousn speak louder than words my friend. He knows he needs votes from some hunters in order to stay i office. So, what you have is an advisory council, and they still did all that? Oh yea, he is a real froend to hunters alright. :roll:

Dave,

I am calling out this post for its content but have a few questions. I am having a little trouble wrapping my brain around these hunting issues.

Question #1

With the kids in the woods with guns part....who started this legislation, the governor? I would imaging the gun/hunting lobby would have started it? What interest in sending kids into the woods would the governor have to initiate this kind of non-sense? Something tells me it must be more than that...like kids are allowed to accompany their adult leaders intot he woods but not carry a gun/shoot without supervision. That actually sounds conservative to me. (less government/big brother telling me what to do).

Question # 2

Regarding the penetentary deal. Article spin aside....It would have been nice to see the GC get the property, considering the PSU record of land stewardship. But didn't the township get the canyon? And they say they can't afford to manage the canyon nor do they have the interest. So the canyon could still go to a Conservation organization. Like the GC, FC or DCNR. If it doesn't and goes to development without fishing permission, the angling community loses and so does the creek. Remember you cannot fish there now, if in the end you can fish there and there are no net losses to the Penn State deal, its a win for sportsmen, albiet a lesser one than the GD getting the land.

Help me to understand these issues...

Maurice

 

[JackM]

Let's see who FarmerDave finds himself at odds with on this one:

State and National Wild Turkey Federation
Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs
United Bowhunters of Pennsylvania
Central Counties Concerned Sportsmen
Pennsylvania Game Commission
National Rifle Association
Quality Deer Management Association
Big Brothers/Big Sister
U.S. Sportsmen's Alliance.

http://www.ducks.org/Pennsylvania/PAContent/1127/MentoredHunting.html

PS, LOL

 

[JackM]

Regarding the Sportsman's Council, here is a link to the membership. You can click on the member's names to read about their backgrounds:

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/gsac/members.aspx

PS - I saw Robert Bachman is on the council. And I notice the Chairman, Mr. Miller "is an avid hunter, angler and boater, and also enjoys hiking, camping and recreational shooting." (I think that's a picture of him with a dead deer, so he can't be all bad, can he?)

 

[FarmerDave]

Responses to your questions.

#1. Good points in there Maurice, and I completely agree with your assumptions. However, the Governor still signed it, probably because he knew it would cost him votes if he didn't. I never said the he was stupid (he isn't). It is a stupid idea (IMO) when only looking at the very brief outline that Jack privided, and he signed it. And the outline was praising the Governor. Keep in mind I am not a party liner. A dumb idea is still a dumb idea regardless of which party started or ended it. they are both guilty. Of course that is only my opinion.

#2. that is all a bunch of what ifs. Regardless if simply a part of it or none of it is set aside, it is still a lossed opportunity, and it sounds like a loss of money for the state, too? Your #2 sounds like this. So what if my big brother ate the whole cake and stole the birthday money, I still might get to lick the plate someday.

 

[FarmerDave]

JackM wrote:
Regarding the Sportsman's Council, here is a link to the membership. You can click on the member's names to read about their backgrounds:

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/gsac/members.aspx

PS - I saw Robert Bachman is on the council. And I notice the Chairman, Mr. Miller "is an avid hunter, angler and boater, and also enjoys hiking, camping and recreational shooting." (I think that's a picture of him with a dead deer, so he can't be all bad, can he?)

Jack, it is only an advisory council. They might have actually adviesd him to sell to the GC. We don't know. The governor gets advice from lots of places.

 

[FarmerDave]

JackM wrote:
Let's see who FarmerDave finds himself at odds with on this one:

State and National Wild Turkey Federation
Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs
United Bowhunters of Pennsylvania
Central Counties Concerned Sportsmen
Pennsylvania Game Commission
National Rifle Association
Quality Deer Management Association
Big Brothers/Big Sister
U.S. Sportsmen's Alliance.

http://www.ducks.org/Pennsylvania/PAContent/1127/MentoredHunting.html

PS, LOL

now wait a second Jack, The game commission offered to buy the property for twice as much, and then advised them to sell to someone else? That's a good one. (I know, you meant the other thing ;-) )

As far as the rest, guilty as charged. Excuse me for having my own opinions. By the way, I'm not a member of any of them. Not even the NRA. i don't believe in a lot of what they support. I guess you will need to build a special Pigeon hole for me. But i am a member of Ducks Unlimited even though I never hunted ducks in my life. How did they feel about it. :-D

 

[JackM]

As the link shows, you are at odds with all of those organizations with your knee-jerk negativity toward the Youth Mentoring initiative and I assume that Duck's Unlimited thought it was a good idea since they highlighted the legislation in a positive manner on their web page.

By the way, does anyone recall how the governor repeatedly nominated and stuck to his guns to get Len Lichvar appointed to the PFBC against strong opposition from Senator Jubelirer?

Also, here's a press release about the Governor praising his administration's protection of 4,000 acres in Cambria County:
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/04-29-2006/0004350627&EDATE=

Had enough of this diversion? If so, I would suggest we discuss the issue raised without making unfounded jabs and accusations at the Governor and politicians.

 

[Maurice]

JackM wrote:
As the link shows, you are at odds with all of those organizations with your knee-jerk negativity toward the Youth Mentoring initiative and I assume that Duck's Unlimited thought it was a good idea since they highlighted the legislation in a positive manner on their web page.

By the way, does anyone recall how the governor repeatedly nominated and stuck to his guns to get Len Lichvar appointed to the PFBC against strong opposition from Senator Jubelirer?

Also, here's a press release about the Governor praising his administration's protection of 4,000 acres in Cambria County:
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/04-29-2006/0004350627&EDATE=

Had enough of this diversion? If so, I would suggest we discuss the issue raised without making unfounded jabs and accusations at the Governor and politicians.

Yeah, but.....and but... I mean....remember the time.....and the gambling.....and Philly....I mean just look at Philly... :lol:

 

[FarmerDave]

Jack, it was not a knee jerk reaction on my part. I was against it even when it was just an idea. I am against it in other states as well, just like i am against giving drivers licenses to 15 year olds as some states do. I've seen pictures of 8 year olds with their first kill. Maybe it was the way I was raised. Even my father thought age 12 was too young and didn't allow us to hunt until we were 13. And he was a avid hunter with 3 sons and taught us all hunter and gun safety long before we took any formal class. ... and he was also a Democrat by the way, not that it matters.

Why do you have a problem with me disagreeing with that bill? I’m guessing it is because I don’t fit into any of the pigeon holes that you put all the people who disagree with you. Build a new one. Excuse me for having a mind of my own.

Maurice, I'm not going to get into any of that. All I said was he is not a friend to hunters. I'm entitled to that opinion.

 

[FarmerDave]

JackM wrote:
As the link shows, you are at odds with all of those organizations with your knee-jerk negativity toward the Youth Mentoring initiative and I assume that Duck's Unlimited thought it was a good idea since they highlighted the legislation in a positive manner on their web page.

By the way, does anyone recall how the governor repeatedly nominated and stuck to his guns to get Len Lichvar appointed to the PFBC against strong opposition from Senator Jubelirer?

Also, here's a press release about the Governor praising his administration's protection of 4,000 acres in Cambria County:
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/04-29-2006/0004350627&EDATE=

Had enough of this diversion? If so, I would suggest we discuss the issue raised without making unfounded jabs and accusations at the Governor and politicians.

Yep, he is praising his administration for the fine work that other people (Conservation Fund) did.;-) Seriously though. This was a good thing all around.