This Needs Attention START SCREAMING

troutbert, I don't know why you used my post to launch your call to action, but the "Bill" that FarmerDave and I were discussing was the Youth Mentoring legislation, not the land acquisition legislation.
 
To find your legislator, and their contact information, go here:
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/find.cfm

To contact Gov. Rendell, go here:
http://www.governor.state.pa.us/governor/cwp/view.asp?a=1117&q=437853&governorNav=|

This isn’t very hard to do and it could really benefit Spring Creek.

Say that you OPPOSE the Rockview lands (Spring Creek Canyon and adjacent lands) being transferred to Penn State University and Benner Township.

And that you FAVOR these lands being transferred to the PA Game Commission, for the permanent protection of Spring Creek and it’s adjacent lands.
 
Jack, I was just speaking to the general topic of this thread regarding the proposed transfers of Rockview lands along Spring Creek, not to your specific comment. Maybe I clicked the wrong box before posting?
 
JackM wrote:
FarmerDave wrote:
This is getting silly.

To me, you have, in fact, dodged the issue I addressed.

I would normally say that is the pot calling the kettle black, but I don't think I actually dodge anything. but you sure did.

Speaking of dodging... For the third time, do those Bill supporting groups that i disagreed with think the Governor is a friend of the hunters? Well? why exactly are you dodging that? afterall, it is the main reason you are badgering me in the first place. Isn't it?

Oh yea, and what about hunting and deer populations. did I do alright on that one? don't respond to that one in this thread. We messed it up enough already.

"dodged the issue?" LOL! Now what issue is it that you feel I dodged that actually deserves to be called "the issue?"

:roll:
 
At least be honest enough to quote me accurately. You dodged "the issue I addressed" in the post to which you were responding. It is getting tiresome to have to correct your distortions constantly. I am not dodging your question about whether those groups think that the Governor is a friend of the hunter, I don't know the answer because I am not privy to what those groups think. You know I'm not privy to it and that is the only reason you asked it. You already think you know the answer anyway, yet have offered nothing yourself to prove your belief about how they feel toward him.

I do know that they agreed with his support of that particular legislation and in giving that support he acted as a friend would. Likewise in his selection of avid hunters for his advisory council, and similarly, with respect to fishing conservation issues by nominating and remaining steadfast in LenLichvar's case.

As for your continued belief that you have demonstrated that something other than speculation is causing you to believe that hunting reduces deer-vehicle accidents, I must admit you have answered that question by your actions. Unfortunately, the answer you are giving is not that there is evidence to support the conclusion. Rather the answer I am hearing is that other than speculation, the reason people believe that hunting reduce deer-vehicle collisions is because it makes them feel better about their hobby and offers a potential argument (unsupported as it is) to use against deer-huggers.
 
JackM wrote:
At least be honest enough to quote me accurately. You dodged "the issue I addressed" in the post to which you were responding. It is getting tiresome to have to correct your distortions constantly.

I did quote you directly and entirely on that last one (look at the top part). I did not distort anything. You called it "the issue." In the part I embedded in my text, I felt that repeating "I addressed" was irrelevant because you addressed many issues. i was simply asking which of the issues that you addressed deserved the distinction of being called "the" issue. I did not distort anything in that response.

I am not dodging your question about whether those groups think that the Governor is a friend of the hunter, I don't know the answer because I am not privy to what those groups think. You know I'm not privy to it and that is the only reason you asked it.

Not true, and where do you get off telling me what i know and don't know. It is common knowledge that most of those groupd were apposed to Randell in both elections.

You already think you know the answer anyway, yet have offered nothing yourself to prove your belief about how they feel toward him.

That is partly true. However, if I was wrong, this would have been a perfect opportunity for you to prove me wrong, and I would bet a case of beer that if you didn't already agree with that thinking you would have tried. That is based on your history.

I do know that they agreed with his support of that particular legislation and in giving that support he acted as a friend would. Likewise in his selection of avid hunters for his advisory council, and similarly, with respect to fishing conservation issues by nominating and remaining steadfast in LenLichvar's case.

True, he acted as a friend would. I addressed that fairly early on.

did I miss "the issue" you addressed again? I'm still comfused as to what issue you were talking about.

As for your continued belief that you have demonstrated that something other than speculation is causing you to believe that hunting reduces deer-vehicle accidents, I must admit you have answered that question by your actions. Unfortunately, the answer you are giving is not that there is evidence to support the conclusion. Rather the answer I am hearing is that other than speculation, the reason people believe that hunting reduce deer-vehicle collisions is because it makes them feel better about their hobby and offers a potential argument (unsupported as it is) to use against deer-huggers.

huh? I may not have given explicit sources, but I assure you that my info was accurate and can be backed up by DCNR and the Game Commison at least. Besides, you already agreed that it can be done in a response to someone else. So it appears that you are arguing for the sake of argument (again). I offered before to look up some sources if you are really interested, but you didn't respond. I can only assume you really aren't interested in anything that supports hunting as a management tool. Either that, or I am an even worse writer than I already thought. Do you want me to look up some sources or not. It might take me awhile because deer science is not exactly mainstream. So don't say yes unless you really mean it
 
You guys need to go smoke a joint and and get some more time on the water to calm down...seriously you two are fighting like a bunch of high school girls
 
Dave if you are intent on arguing with yourself, go right ahead. I will discuss and argue anything with you or anyone else, but I will not waste my time with someone who intentionally distorts my statements and provides emphasis on articles of speech to dishonestly create a false impression of my statements. (Regarding the deer-vehicle issue you are injecting here,) My very first post posed a simple question that can only be answered by showing that evidence exists that hunting reduces deer vehicle collisions. You have not produced a shread of evidence to that effect.
 
In any case, I am wondering whether you (or Sal or FarmerDave) did any reading about the issue other than the linked article which was essentially written by a Sierra Club spokesman? Do you know anything beyond that about the Governor's role in the decision or his reasons for it? If not, it is irresponsible and unfair to malign him personally in the way you did.

yes i did BTW jack, who said life is fair? :-D
 
Jack, I didn't distort anything other than the places where i made it clear that i was joking, and you even had a problem with that.

And I see you still did not answer my question. Do you really want to know the answer to that question? I did find some info to support what I said. I'd be glad to provide it, if it would actually make any difference for you.
 
FarmerDave, I'm exausted on this topic. I'm not even sure which of the two issue we are debating that you are offering me support for, but I'm always willing to listen.
 
I'm talking about the deer question. It is the most recent question that i offered. Most of the other things we have been arguing about are strictly opinion. You may not like some of my opinions, but that is because they are mine, not yours. We will just have to agree to disagree. I have no problem if you think Governor Randell is the greatest thing since sliced bread. And I am not saying you think that. I’m just saying I have no problem if you do. I just don’t have that opinion. I don’t think he is the Antichrist, I just don’t think he is a very good governor. You shouldn’t have a problem with that.

If you are really interested in learning more about the dynamics of the deer herd, and whether or not hunting can reduce the numbers, I have found a fair amount of info to back up what I said earlier. I've even learned a few new things. I can put it in the other thread, or start a new one. If you want to learn more about deer, I'd be glad to help. But be prepared. It may change your opinion if you read it with an open mind.

This subject is complex, and is very difficult to discuss intelligently when one or both parties already has a preconceived opinion. Of course if you simply don't trust anything anyone else says without links to scientific studies, it becomes even more difficult. However, I believe I have found info that backs up everything I said if you really need proof that I was telling the truth. It was easier to find than I thought. Lots of info out there once you look past the animal rights websites.
 
Whether you believe it or not, I approach all topics with an "open mind" but also with a skeptical and critical mind. They are not mutually exclusive approaches. That hunting could be used as a means of reducing the deer herd and consequently DVCs isn't the essence of my dispute. My dispute is whether hunting does reduce DVCs or whether people who claim that are merely speculating.
 
Jack; With all due respect you are from the other side of the state and do not know what a slick politition rendell is. He is anti gun and has tried repeditly to register guns while mayor of phila. Anything he does for sportsman is for his own political gain. He is allied with phila mayor to register and charge a fee to gun owners. The problem in phila is drugs but they can't controll them so they pick on hunters and gun owners.
 
Well with all due respect, Lou, I think I know as much or more about the Governor and his policies than you do, despite where I am residing. I don't agree with him on everything, but I have seen much worse. I am a strong supporter of 2nd Amendment rights myself, but I don't allow the NRA and other such groups to manipulate my opinon with scare tactics that suggest that every gun control measure is an effort to take away people's guns or gun rights. This thread has already walked the tight-rope of inappropriate political discussions. If you'd like, I'll delete your post and this one of mine; otherwise, I suggest you leave this alone so we don't slip back into the inappropriate use of the message board.
 
My head hurts, can we get back to supporting the land transfer to the GAME COMMISSION, the proposal to transfer peacemeal to PSU and the township is just WRONG. PSU sold a beautiful piece of land at Circleville Road. WHY? Steve at Fly Fishers Paradise suspended his wonderuf web site because of arguments, regretably at the time we all need to support selling the land to the Game Cimmission.
 
lj, we can certainly get back to the issue of the land transfer, but is it absolutely necessary to get back to supporting the transfer to the Game Commission? Couldn't some of us support transferring it to PSU with restrictions that prevent harm to the stream? Likewise, can't we discuss whether the choice of "losing Spring Creek" versus transferring the the Game Commission is a false dilemma? Disagreements and arguments don't shut down message boards, site owners do. Dave Kile has never sought to prohibit disagreement and argument, just personal attacks and foul language. Keep it clean and stay away from personal attacks and you can disagree all you want.
 
Jack: I really don't care who gets the land, just that the entire parcel is forever preserved as it is today. Or if PSU does use the land that they use it as an experiment and study as to the proper way to protect the watershead and stream.
 
Somewhere in this thread I think, I posted a link to Benner Township's web page which had linked documents which were community comments from a forum they held some time ago. Among those are comments from the Dean of the PSU Ag College. Now, PSU's position may have changed and if someone knows it has and can verify it, please do so, but the position I read in the Ag Dean's address was that they plan to put some physical facilities on the land (not along the creek by any means) and they were willing to pay for the land and to agree to restrictions on the use of the land. The restriction he spoke about, however, were not to avoid any development. As he stated it, they would agree to restrict it for a use for research and education or something to that effect. This, of course, is too vague to be construed to prohibit physical facilities and I'm sure that was intentional. So, if you want the entire parcel to be completely undeveloped, then the PSU proposal is probably not for you.

I am a believer that although winning is always the best result, second best is "not losing too bad." This is why I drafted my letter the way I did.
 
http://www.clearwaterconservancy.org/CWC%20files/Spring%20Creek%20Canyon/Spring%20Creek%20Canyon%20letter%20to%20Senator%20Corman%2012-8-05.pdf link is for history and information. Also I am afraid that there is a little bad blood here due to the fact that PSU had to pay the Game Comission 8.3 million not long ago?? PSU was also required to replace the lands taken with like lands withing s certain distance, which they have not done, so much for their creditability, as I said I don't care who takes the lands but wording must be there that protection of the watershed and stream are foremost.
 
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