The Spotburning Thread
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FlySwatter
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Please pass the popcorn... 😛
FlySwatter
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by midnightangler on 2012/2/7 23:21:08
You realize this spot-burning debate is absurd right? There are real issues that effect fisheries a hundred times more severely: fracking, stocking over wild fish, agriculture, urban runoff... the list goes on and on.
Anglers should be putting a lot more thought into these issues instead of whining about spot burning. Seriously. People are drilling the hell out of areas adjacent some of the best wild trout water in the state, carelessly stocking over wild fish, piping effluent into the state's best trout streams, and this is what people get the most worked up about?
I don't care about spot burning for a second. I had the entire C&R section on penns to myself today and the fish were going bananas. I'd rather see other anglers get out there and catch a few wild fish so that they know what a great day of fishing can be. Maybe then they'd be more sympathetic toward the resources that need to be protected.
Within the last 50 years many of PAs best streams have been RUINED by pollution. They will never recover. Many of the best hatches on spring creek and the little Juniata are gone forever. The list of impaired streams is a lot longer than the list of ones that have not been affected. Care about something that actually matters. Spot-burning isn't on that list.
Also, people need to stop pretending that spot-burning is about protecting a resource. The spot burning debate is about nothing more than people being selfish.
AMEN!
You realize this spot-burning debate is absurd right? There are real issues that effect fisheries a hundred times more severely: fracking, stocking over wild fish, agriculture, urban runoff... the list goes on and on.
Anglers should be putting a lot more thought into these issues instead of whining about spot burning. Seriously. People are drilling the hell out of areas adjacent some of the best wild trout water in the state, carelessly stocking over wild fish, piping effluent into the state's best trout streams, and this is what people get the most worked up about?
I don't care about spot burning for a second. I had the entire C&R section on penns to myself today and the fish were going bananas. I'd rather see other anglers get out there and catch a few wild fish so that they know what a great day of fishing can be. Maybe then they'd be more sympathetic toward the resources that need to be protected.
Within the last 50 years many of PAs best streams have been RUINED by pollution. They will never recover. Many of the best hatches on spring creek and the little Juniata are gone forever. The list of impaired streams is a lot longer than the list of ones that have not been affected. Care about something that actually matters. Spot-burning isn't on that list.
Also, people need to stop pretending that spot-burning is about protecting a resource. The spot burning debate is about nothing more than people being selfish.
AMEN!
Swattie87
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I'll agree with a few of the recent posters who have mentioned that selfishness plays a role in the SBing debate. Nothing inherently wrong with having a favorite stream, and wanting to keep it all to yourself, but let's call it like it is. Protecting the resource is not the issue at heart...guys get pissed when other anglers show up on "their" stream, for whatever reason. Keep in mind though, unless you're the landowner of the property through which the stream flows...there's not a whole lot you can do about it. If it's open to fishing, or on public land, other people can fish it...tough rocks. As far as protecting the resource goes, I'd agree, more knowledge and exposure is probably better, so I don't buy that one.
Any of us who fish a decent amount in this state realize that nearly all streams, even the tiny ones, get fished at some point. I was way up in the headwaters of a tiny trickle this Fall and I found a fly stuck in an overhanging branch...size 14 or so parachute Adams...Sal was it yours? ;-)
Most of us at one point or another have probably had a stream crop up by name on here that we wish didn't. It happens, no big deal, and certainly no reason to belittle the guy that posted it. The bottom line is the sum of knowledge we stand to gain by allowing unattacked stream reporting far exceeds the net risk in having one of your personal favorites named on occasion.
There are plenty of trout streams in this state...if you drive up to "your" stream and there's a car already there...do what I do...go to one of "your" other streams, catch some fish, and don't worry about it. You'll get to fish "your" other stream again sometime soon.
Any of us who fish a decent amount in this state realize that nearly all streams, even the tiny ones, get fished at some point. I was way up in the headwaters of a tiny trickle this Fall and I found a fly stuck in an overhanging branch...size 14 or so parachute Adams...Sal was it yours? ;-)
Most of us at one point or another have probably had a stream crop up by name on here that we wish didn't. It happens, no big deal, and certainly no reason to belittle the guy that posted it. The bottom line is the sum of knowledge we stand to gain by allowing unattacked stream reporting far exceeds the net risk in having one of your personal favorites named on occasion.
There are plenty of trout streams in this state...if you drive up to "your" stream and there's a car already there...do what I do...go to one of "your" other streams, catch some fish, and don't worry about it. You'll get to fish "your" other stream again sometime soon.
wgmiller
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Another option is you (not specifically you) could fish the stream anyway and perhaps you might you run into the person, have a good conversation, and make a friend in the process. Not everyone that shows up to fish a stream is there to ruin it!
I think a lot of the "spot burning" ideology has to do with selfishness...
Swattie87
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Agreed, for the most part...not always feasible or appropriate on the smallest of streams though I think. To clarify, if it's a small stream and I only see the car, and don't see the angler, I often don't wanna encroach on their space since I don't know where they are. They might be downstream, fishing back up or suppose they hiked upstream and are fishing back down? Either way, I don't wanna spook any water they haven't fished. That's just out of mutual respect on a small stream. Most places I go for that kind of fishing there's an equally good option one ridge over, so I'll just go there instead that day.
If I can see the angler close to their car and can have a conversation with them about which way they're working, or if it's a larger stream then I'd fully agree with you.
My use of "your" repeatedly in quotes was said tongue in cheek. There is no such thing as "your" stream unless you are the landowner.
iceyguides
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As long as the first amendment exists so will spotburning. If we don't post stream reports here it probably won't change anything. People will just turn to other resources, which are readily available. The difference between reading a book, looking at a map, or making 3 mouse clicks instead of 36 is arbitrary. The aphorism "god grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change and the wisdom to know the difference" comes to mind. get over it.
WG I also tend to agree with alot that is being said, however some streams just don't fish well after large increases in pressure. Hence the reason only certain streams get "complained" about.
My biggest gripe is the hero element of some stream reports.
If you post observations etc and say yea i caught a few fish. on 99 percent of streams that is no big deal.
When you come on and glorify yourself (not you specifically) at the expense of the stream, that is generally where I have the gripe.
My biggest gripe is the hero element of some stream reports.
If you post observations etc and say yea i caught a few fish. on 99 percent of streams that is no big deal.
When you come on and glorify yourself (not you specifically) at the expense of the stream, that is generally where I have the gripe.
krayfish
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BMarx / troll / multiple account holder,
Why did you feel the need to turn it personal and make an attack against me? I've fished the Catskills since 87 with an older gentleman that was nice enough to share the resources with me. Just about everything I know about the D is self-taught with many hours logged. The only exception was one spring where I fished with Art Lee and his buddy Galen for about 4 months. You claim that the fishing was better 10 years ago prior to the FFM articles. Really? And now it's been spot burned? So the decline of the fishery has more to do with anglers than the water releases from the dams, huh? Are you saying that a fish caught and released 4 times during the Hendrickson hatch is more likely to die than an uncaught fish in the river during a 225 cfs release in the middle of June when the water temps spike to 80 degrees? There's a new theory that will hold no water.
If you don't mind, please share the post I did where I mentioned that I was "God's gift to the Delaware". As a matter of fact, show me one thread where I even claimed to be a good fly fisherman. I know I don't. I've enjoyed the sport and have tried to get others introduced to it on the Tully, on Clarks and other local waters. It's very obvious that I haven't discovered the Delaware River fishery but also don't feel the need to hide it from others. If anything, I'm trying to draw attention to the river system, familiarize people with the FUDR and trying to protect / enhance the resource. Is it more crowded than it was in the 80's? Hell yes. I remember being able to fish the Methodist Camp on a Saturday and Sunday where I might see one other guy. Go there now and there are 6-8 guys. It's an inconvenience but that's about it. If you watch the anglers, at least 50% of them have little or no chance in catching a fish due to poor technique, awful fly selection or other factors.
I'm sorry that you feel that spot burning affects your super skilled angling a trickle filled with spotted fingerlings. If you are anti-social and don't like seeing other anglers, go find another stream, trickle or river. It's pretty simple. I do like your idea about posting “huge bows at Fishes Eddy”. I’m going to try it and see how much more pressure it causes. I get by that place quite often. If you are too lazy to walk away from the access point, then you deserve to fish in a crowd. The other problem over there is land owners rights extend to the middle of the river. You need a map from the DEC and must respect the rights of the property owners. Be sure to say hello next time I float by ya. I’ll be in a Scadden pontoon or a red and white Clackacraft. Take care an may the flows stay at 2500 cfs on each branch all season.
For the most part, I’m going to agree with a previous post that the spot burning subject is motivated by selfishness. Could 20 times the fishing pressure hurt a tiny stream? I suppose but I rarely fish them nor do I post about them.
Why did you feel the need to turn it personal and make an attack against me? I've fished the Catskills since 87 with an older gentleman that was nice enough to share the resources with me. Just about everything I know about the D is self-taught with many hours logged. The only exception was one spring where I fished with Art Lee and his buddy Galen for about 4 months. You claim that the fishing was better 10 years ago prior to the FFM articles. Really? And now it's been spot burned? So the decline of the fishery has more to do with anglers than the water releases from the dams, huh? Are you saying that a fish caught and released 4 times during the Hendrickson hatch is more likely to die than an uncaught fish in the river during a 225 cfs release in the middle of June when the water temps spike to 80 degrees? There's a new theory that will hold no water.
If you don't mind, please share the post I did where I mentioned that I was "God's gift to the Delaware". As a matter of fact, show me one thread where I even claimed to be a good fly fisherman. I know I don't. I've enjoyed the sport and have tried to get others introduced to it on the Tully, on Clarks and other local waters. It's very obvious that I haven't discovered the Delaware River fishery but also don't feel the need to hide it from others. If anything, I'm trying to draw attention to the river system, familiarize people with the FUDR and trying to protect / enhance the resource. Is it more crowded than it was in the 80's? Hell yes. I remember being able to fish the Methodist Camp on a Saturday and Sunday where I might see one other guy. Go there now and there are 6-8 guys. It's an inconvenience but that's about it. If you watch the anglers, at least 50% of them have little or no chance in catching a fish due to poor technique, awful fly selection or other factors.
I'm sorry that you feel that spot burning affects your super skilled angling a trickle filled with spotted fingerlings. If you are anti-social and don't like seeing other anglers, go find another stream, trickle or river. It's pretty simple. I do like your idea about posting “huge bows at Fishes Eddy”. I’m going to try it and see how much more pressure it causes. I get by that place quite often. If you are too lazy to walk away from the access point, then you deserve to fish in a crowd. The other problem over there is land owners rights extend to the middle of the river. You need a map from the DEC and must respect the rights of the property owners. Be sure to say hello next time I float by ya. I’ll be in a Scadden pontoon or a red and white Clackacraft. Take care an may the flows stay at 2500 cfs on each branch all season.
For the most part, I’m going to agree with a previous post that the spot burning subject is motivated by selfishness. Could 20 times the fishing pressure hurt a tiny stream? I suppose but I rarely fish them nor do I post about them.
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Then it isn't spot-burning, but bragging that bothers you? I am really even more disappointed that this is your prime motivation for complaining. Some people like to share their success. If that aggitates you, just read something else and talk about the matter than most interests you.
Everyone has their own style. A "Stream Report" that only recites the numbers caught and provides no information about how they were caught and what the conditions were is always corrected, or at least it is encouraged by the moderators for the additional information to be supplemented.
We also move post probing for information (as opposed to reporting it) and posts of unnamed streams into the Stream Locations Forum.
In a recent thread that went haywire, BMarx, you posted a snark about the lack of useful information before any moderator even had a chance to view the Report. When Fishidiot did, he showed the poster in a polite way how to make the report useful and the tiling issue was fixed as well.
We don't need vigilantes trying to mold the Stream Reports into their ideal. It is an open forum. Issues of content are the prerogative of the board owner and his appointed moderators.
Everyone has their own style. A "Stream Report" that only recites the numbers caught and provides no information about how they were caught and what the conditions were is always corrected, or at least it is encouraged by the moderators for the additional information to be supplemented.
We also move post probing for information (as opposed to reporting it) and posts of unnamed streams into the Stream Locations Forum.
In a recent thread that went haywire, BMarx, you posted a snark about the lack of useful information before any moderator even had a chance to view the Report. When Fishidiot did, he showed the poster in a polite way how to make the report useful and the tiling issue was fixed as well.
We don't need vigilantes trying to mold the Stream Reports into their ideal. It is an open forum. Issues of content are the prerogative of the board owner and his appointed moderators.
wgmiller
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BMarx,
This topic certainly is akin with politics - strong feelings on both sides of the topic and there will never be 100% agreement.
Personally, speaking, I post stream reports because I learned most of what I know about fly fishing through this site and trial and error. This site and all of the information contained within has been an invaluable tool for me to greatly reduce the learning curve with regards to fly fishing.
Case in point, my recent post on the Donegal. "Unforgiven" didn't believe there were any fish in the stream. "Sasquatch" had only ever fished the stream one time. By me posting a stream report, it shows them (and others) a small sampling of what exists on the stream. It all shows others who know the stream what's happening (i.e. wild rainbow).
I can fully understand the concern you, GreenWeenie, and a few others have about the publicity that comes to streams that are more "fragile" than others. There is some merit to that, but I also firmly believe that exposure can also help a stream's cause as well.
For example, I don't know all the history of BS and have only started to fish it recently. Those of you who have been fishing it for years know how things have played out. But the work that has been done on BS and the work that is to be done on BS can only help the stream (in my unprofessional opinion). I think it's a matter of harnessing the publicity in the right direction.
I respect the opinions of those on both sides of this issue because I think each side has valid arguments. I haven't been fishing long enough to see streams change and how pressure "changes" a stream. But I also agree with what has been stated that our streams face much greater issues these days from external forces such as gas drilling, development, and a host of other issues.
This topic certainly is akin with politics - strong feelings on both sides of the topic and there will never be 100% agreement.
Personally, speaking, I post stream reports because I learned most of what I know about fly fishing through this site and trial and error. This site and all of the information contained within has been an invaluable tool for me to greatly reduce the learning curve with regards to fly fishing.
Case in point, my recent post on the Donegal. "Unforgiven" didn't believe there were any fish in the stream. "Sasquatch" had only ever fished the stream one time. By me posting a stream report, it shows them (and others) a small sampling of what exists on the stream. It all shows others who know the stream what's happening (i.e. wild rainbow).
I can fully understand the concern you, GreenWeenie, and a few others have about the publicity that comes to streams that are more "fragile" than others. There is some merit to that, but I also firmly believe that exposure can also help a stream's cause as well.
For example, I don't know all the history of BS and have only started to fish it recently. Those of you who have been fishing it for years know how things have played out. But the work that has been done on BS and the work that is to be done on BS can only help the stream (in my unprofessional opinion). I think it's a matter of harnessing the publicity in the right direction.
I respect the opinions of those on both sides of this issue because I think each side has valid arguments. I haven't been fishing long enough to see streams change and how pressure "changes" a stream. But I also agree with what has been stated that our streams face much greater issues these days from external forces such as gas drilling, development, and a host of other issues.
WG,
I am 100 percent for outting any stream in "danger" of imminent pollution etc, however when people come on post under the guise of conservation when there is no threat at all and all relevant data indicates the exact opposite, its obnoxious at a minimum. Especially when such places are off the radar of your average angler.
If you fish a stream and see raw cow sludge being dumped in, or guys tossing in barrels of stuff in the evening by all means, lets help it. When you have a stream that can't handle people pounding it like a (insert witty simile here) glorifying it on interwebs for thousands to see is not the tasteful approach.
I am 100 percent for outting any stream in "danger" of imminent pollution etc, however when people come on post under the guise of conservation when there is no threat at all and all relevant data indicates the exact opposite, its obnoxious at a minimum. Especially when such places are off the radar of your average angler.
If you fish a stream and see raw cow sludge being dumped in, or guys tossing in barrels of stuff in the evening by all means, lets help it. When you have a stream that can't handle people pounding it like a (insert witty simile here) glorifying it on interwebs for thousands to see is not the tasteful approach.
PatrickC
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Well stated Jack!
I often wonder why folks with such strong opinions don't just go and start their own "perfect" forum? How great would a forum be that did not allow for stream reports, stories with pictures, and only allowed for discussion of fishing with a specfic type of dry fly?
What makes a forum great is in fact all of the characters and their different views. What makes a forum helpful is sharing your view graceously and understanding that others may not see it your way. If they don't, well, maybe that's okay. We were created differently and are actually allowed to have different opinions. We don't even have to hate each other when we do.
Foxgap239
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FWIW, I agree with both sides right to believe what they believe and I respect both sides. I even have agreement with certain points made by both sides but what gets me annoyed is the manner in which we chose to voice our views. I support your 1st amendment right but those against spot burning tend to come off (and that's the key, how you come off by the reader's perception) as arrogant and selfish. I'm sure most of you would take a different tack face-to-face and your message may be better received. I have read a lot of the spot burning proponents posts on other issues and have found you all to be insightful and helpful. I understand you passion for this issue sometimes gets the best of you but I would simply ask, that you treat others, in open forum, as you yourself would expect to be treated. I think we can all agree to disagree in a respectful manner.
