Extrapolation on BS would be alot of pun intended BS. 90 percent of that fish "lived" in about 10 percent of the stream. There were certain habitat that they lived in, the rest was literally devoid of fish. You could find 50 fish under one bush then none for 150 yards. I am not talking about them by just fishing either, Im talking about exploring, walking through reaching under cress etc. There is alot to it and if you hardly fished it you really no offense, can't commentate on it accurately.
The Spotburning Thread
- Thread starter afishinado
- Start date
Nymph-O-Maniac
Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2011
- Messages
- 280
This is good humor.FYF
The_Sasquatch
Well-known member
I swear I'm drawn to this thread like a, a, well, I don't know what.
FI,
The section GW and I are talking about is not and was not surveyed. Again incase you cant read, I was with them on SEVERAL of these surveys over more than one year. They SAID WE DONT SURVEY THAT STRETCH.
YES I do Trump you, and no im not trumping the PFBC, simply stating they DONT SURVEY CERTAIN SECTIONS. They take samplings, and most of the samplings they take are short stretches where all the fish are concentrated in say 45 percent of the entire survey length. For example if they sample 100 yards, most if not all the fish are in a 45 yard or smaller stretch. In a pod, under the only habitat suitable coverwise.
You should say, I (JackM) can't really speak on this topic, especially this stream because I (JackM) don't have enough experience with this said stream/topic.
FI they survey small stretches of water here and there it is not all telling. Even in the water they do survey many of the fish go uncounted, I stood next to them and helped measure fish on more than one occassion. What part of that don't you understand.
The section GW and I are talking about is not and was not surveyed. Again incase you cant read, I was with them on SEVERAL of these surveys over more than one year. They SAID WE DONT SURVEY THAT STRETCH.
YES I do Trump you, and no im not trumping the PFBC, simply stating they DONT SURVEY CERTAIN SECTIONS. They take samplings, and most of the samplings they take are short stretches where all the fish are concentrated in say 45 percent of the entire survey length. For example if they sample 100 yards, most if not all the fish are in a 45 yard or smaller stretch. In a pod, under the only habitat suitable coverwise.
You should say, I (JackM) can't really speak on this topic, especially this stream because I (JackM) don't have enough experience with this said stream/topic.
FI they survey small stretches of water here and there it is not all telling. Even in the water they do survey many of the fish go uncounted, I stood next to them and helped measure fish on more than one occassion. What part of that don't you understand.
FiveWeight
Member
- Joined
- May 29, 2008
- Messages
- 689
The non members(lurkers/trolls)you see here may or may not be a factor. I sometimes don't log in. Sometimes I'm running under a proxy ip. I'm sure I'm not the only one who does this. Just say'n.
GW,
I do get what you're saying. You and BMarx obviously have spent a lot more time on the water at BigSpring and I won't get into a &^% swinging contest over who's the superior angler.
But, as has been pointed out, some of us have a familiarity with that stream that stretches the timeline out beyond 7-8yrs and gives us a different perspective. As such, you probably go to BigSpring with a different experience in mind than when I do. I took a long break from 'serious' fishing to pursue and achieve some bike racing dreams over the last dozen or so years and now that I have the time again I'm back into the sport of the angle. I still pedal aplenty and ski when conditions are suitable, and tie flies and recently picked up the violin again, would like to get into building cane rods sometime soon, etc, etc. I like to get out on the water for a few hours at a time, rarely if ever am I on the water sunrise to sunset. I'm passionate about my fishing, but it's not my sole pursuit.
I just find your and BMarx's claims that BigSpring has been 'ruined' to be ridiculous. Whether it's by the work of a lot of passionate fellow anglers, or by the claimed spot burning on this site or one of the many, many, many other sites that promote BigSpring, none of this has caused the ruination of BigSpring. As a point to ponder, how do you think the propsed poultry farm would've played out if there hadn't been this uptick in popularity? What if was just yours and BMarx's voices to be heard, without the backing of those that have recently been turned on to this gem of a stream?
So, yeah, sorry, but it irks me to read your soapbox opinion based upon your self aknowledged expertise on the subject when it doesn't exactly jive with what I'm seeing and personally experiencing. Complaining about spot burning, but having posted pics of fine fish from the stream yourself is a bit ironic. And between calling out a lot of very dedicated, knowledgable, self sacrificing folks as 'idiots' to making claims of 'ruination!!', I just don't find some of your posts agreeable. I'm sorry that you find the project(s) on BigSpring to be so horrible, from what I've picked up here and elsewhere, it's been a contentious issue from the start. But, it is what it is now. I still find the fishing there to be excellent, I have yet to deal with the reported overcrowding and the stream appears to me to be as healthy as it's ever been, based upon the years that I've known it. And I have faith that it will continue to get better, whether it's in spite of or due to our efforts as a whole to be good stewards.
I do get what you're saying. You and BMarx obviously have spent a lot more time on the water at BigSpring and I won't get into a &^% swinging contest over who's the superior angler.
But, as has been pointed out, some of us have a familiarity with that stream that stretches the timeline out beyond 7-8yrs and gives us a different perspective. As such, you probably go to BigSpring with a different experience in mind than when I do. I took a long break from 'serious' fishing to pursue and achieve some bike racing dreams over the last dozen or so years and now that I have the time again I'm back into the sport of the angle. I still pedal aplenty and ski when conditions are suitable, and tie flies and recently picked up the violin again, would like to get into building cane rods sometime soon, etc, etc. I like to get out on the water for a few hours at a time, rarely if ever am I on the water sunrise to sunset. I'm passionate about my fishing, but it's not my sole pursuit.
I just find your and BMarx's claims that BigSpring has been 'ruined' to be ridiculous. Whether it's by the work of a lot of passionate fellow anglers, or by the claimed spot burning on this site or one of the many, many, many other sites that promote BigSpring, none of this has caused the ruination of BigSpring. As a point to ponder, how do you think the propsed poultry farm would've played out if there hadn't been this uptick in popularity? What if was just yours and BMarx's voices to be heard, without the backing of those that have recently been turned on to this gem of a stream?
So, yeah, sorry, but it irks me to read your soapbox opinion based upon your self aknowledged expertise on the subject when it doesn't exactly jive with what I'm seeing and personally experiencing. Complaining about spot burning, but having posted pics of fine fish from the stream yourself is a bit ironic. And between calling out a lot of very dedicated, knowledgable, self sacrificing folks as 'idiots' to making claims of 'ruination!!', I just don't find some of your posts agreeable. I'm sorry that you find the project(s) on BigSpring to be so horrible, from what I've picked up here and elsewhere, it's been a contentious issue from the start. But, it is what it is now. I still find the fishing there to be excellent, I have yet to deal with the reported overcrowding and the stream appears to me to be as healthy as it's ever been, based upon the years that I've known it. And I have faith that it will continue to get better, whether it's in spite of or due to our efforts as a whole to be good stewards.
ryguyfi
Active member
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2006
- Messages
- 4,796
So where is this Big Spring everyone speaks of? Is it stocked or does it have native brown and rainbow trout? Can someone tell me what flies to use and where to park? I usually only keep a fish or two every time out to fertilize my garden. Really helps get those bell peppers pretty big.
Your claim that the "lower half" has NEVER been surveyed is factually incorrect.
The most recent survey done in Sept did in fact look at the "lower half" of the FFO and some short sections of the ATW below Nealy RD in the vicinity of the Lutheran Home. To be sure, it did not cover the entire FFO: the very lowest section (a few hundred yards of water above Nealy Rd) was not checked. The ditch was not checked this time either. Everything in between was surveyed, covering the majority of the FFO. The ditch has been checked dozens of times, as recently as 2007. The purpose of the most recent surveys was to assess fish populations above, below, and in, the restored section. In recent years, the PFBC has surveyed two or three control sections for purposes of comparison. This survey was a bit different and covered a larger section of stream. Sure, fish move around and electrofishing surveys aren't flawless but they provide the best scientific picture of fish populations and this recent survey reveals that trout are doing extremely well in the FFO section of BS. The areas checked in the ATW section were disappointing and did not reveal the number of fish that many had hoped.
bingsbaits
Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2009
- Messages
- 213
One of my biggest pet peeves with SB is people(not the OP) naming the stream .
Have put up a few reports and TR's in my day and do not name streams.
But give a day or 2 and some Jackwagon has to run his mouth and say Hey that is such and such creek.
If the OP left out the name of the stream then everyone reading should give them the common courtesy and do the same.
PatC, look what has happened on the trib we like to frequent.
3 years ago you might see 4-5 cars parked in the area, there have been upwards of 75 cars in the parking lots now.
I blame that on SB.
Have put up a few reports and TR's in my day and do not name streams.
But give a day or 2 and some Jackwagon has to run his mouth and say Hey that is such and such creek.
If the OP left out the name of the stream then everyone reading should give them the common courtesy and do the same.
PatC, look what has happened on the trib we like to frequent.
3 years ago you might see 4-5 cars parked in the area, there have been upwards of 75 cars in the parking lots now.
I blame that on SB.
GreenWeenie
Member
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2008
- Messages
- 697
FI,
The reason the ATW section shocking did not reveal the number of fish they had "hoped for" is because the siltation caused by the restoration work ruined much of the downstream habitat just like I have been saying based on observations. There were lots of fish in the ATW section before the work.
Thank you for confirming what my obersvations indicated through your scientific data!
Just out of curiousity, how did the PFBC determine what biomass they had "hoped for" in the ATW section? Was it just possible that maybe they based their "hope" on prior observations of what their biologist knew was there because they certainly didn't electroshock that section to establish a true scientific baseline. So how were they able to set a desired target biomass that they hoped would be there if they had not baseline scientific data? What was there basis? how can they say they expected more? They need something to compare it to and what was it? Please tell.
Tomi,
So for the last dozen years you've kind of been out of it but yet know what is actually going on becuase......you rode your bike by it every night??????????
Both you and FI keep pointing back to the stream prior to 2001 and comparing it then to now and trying to somehow make that as a meanigful comparison. There is no comparison - the stream today (February 7, 2012) is 100000 times better than it was in 2001. However, setting aside your pet 200 yard stretch of restored area, the overall C&R section, and even extending down in the ATW section, is not as good atoday as it was in August 2010 prior to the work.
The reason the ATW section shocking did not reveal the number of fish they had "hoped for" is because the siltation caused by the restoration work ruined much of the downstream habitat just like I have been saying based on observations. There were lots of fish in the ATW section before the work.
Thank you for confirming what my obersvations indicated through your scientific data!
Just out of curiousity, how did the PFBC determine what biomass they had "hoped for" in the ATW section? Was it just possible that maybe they based their "hope" on prior observations of what their biologist knew was there because they certainly didn't electroshock that section to establish a true scientific baseline. So how were they able to set a desired target biomass that they hoped would be there if they had not baseline scientific data? What was there basis? how can they say they expected more? They need something to compare it to and what was it? Please tell.
Tomi,
So for the last dozen years you've kind of been out of it but yet know what is actually going on becuase......you rode your bike by it every night??????????
Both you and FI keep pointing back to the stream prior to 2001 and comparing it then to now and trying to somehow make that as a meanigful comparison. There is no comparison - the stream today (February 7, 2012) is 100000 times better than it was in 2001. However, setting aside your pet 200 yard stretch of restored area, the overall C&R section, and even extending down in the ATW section, is not as good atoday as it was in August 2010 prior to the work.
PatrickC
Active member
- Joined
- May 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,397
Yea, I guess. It seems like all of the PA tribs are just overrun with folks these days. I think the issue is tough. I am more tight lipped about naming tribs/streams than I used to be. Most of that is because I don't feel like getting in an arguement with some internet tough guy every time I post. I think most folks simply just don't realize how far reaching the internet impact is. That was certainly the case in my own early posts. It still boils down to education not threats. The reality is, you cannot control other people. Take the high road, educate them graciously, and move on. Set the example for others to follow. If you act like an ******...don't be upset when everyone around you points it out. :-/
IdratherbePhishing
Member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2011
- Messages
- 740
Here goes my two cents. Probably will rub some ppl wrong. I don't like the idea of spot burning beautiful class a natural repos or wilderness streams. If the spots are gonna be burned let them be stocked atws. Ff does not come easy for some here. For a year I ff and caught nothing. Others in my area had also never caught a trout on a fly rod and I had took/ put them in an area where there was fish to be caught. I'm a 25 year old barbless c&r fishermen and truth is some people have great intentions. I pick trash up when I see it and do my part where and when needed. That being said I understand some things are meant to be beautiful. But some of you "gods gift" to ff and this stream is gods gift to me should relax. Ff already has negative stereotypes of people being arrogant. In my first year of ff I ran into many people who would share nothing not even slight wave as I walked courtesly around you. I've been in multiple orvis stores where because I was some kid and not a rich looking old man I received dirty looks and ****** customer service. This board is public and has public events and if you wanted some brotherhood you should've kept it that way. Guess my point is people should be allowed to share the same things with the right intentions. I don't think things should be kept in some secret where you have to earn it from some guy who thinks he's the gatekeeper to some stream he has a billion hours on. And If your really mad at the spot burning don't be mad at ppl on here be mad at Pfbc for posting the information of where and how to get to these places. Just my .02
