PatrickC
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Agree...we all feed on a reaction basis. Some of those reactions are more complex than others. But, even with my pea-brain....if an orange Reece's Pieces comes floating by....I'm hitting it
Agree...we all feed on a reaction basis. Some of those reactions are more complex than others. But, even with my pea-brain....if an orange Reece's Pieces comes floating by....I'm hitting it
Pghtrouthunter
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I got out on Elk yesterday and it was as expected low and clear. I had to walk a long ways but I found a really sweet little streamside run that held a large pod of some of the biggest fish I have seen.
The fish yesterday were spooky but the slot into the run gave just enough of a riffle that I could fish it effectively and not spook the fish by casting. I did have to get rid of my strike indicator and like some of the posters above switch to trout nymphs.
Once I did that I cleaned my box out catching fish and losing the flys with break offs on the fish and in the bushes. Bringing a steelie to hand with on a number 14 pheasant tail is a new challenge. I hooked a dozen (complete transparancy: two were foul hooked) and landed three. A number were clean spits of the hook and I broke a couple off. The positive side is the first fish I caught had to be close to 15 lbs and was the first fish in 20 years of fly fishing (although only 2 steelheading) that ran me well into my backing. By far the largest fresh water fish I have ever caught.
In the spirit of our recent grip and grin debate it took a long time to bring this fish to net so I elected to get the healthy and clean release versus the posterity shot.
I also saw a monster lake run brown exit the water chasing an emerger and a few risers. I took a stab on the dry flies but didnt get any takers.
The best part is I found this area arounda bend about 200 yards from one of the typical Elk Creek huddle holes and I couldnt see another soul in either direction.
Fun day....
The fish yesterday were spooky but the slot into the run gave just enough of a riffle that I could fish it effectively and not spook the fish by casting. I did have to get rid of my strike indicator and like some of the posters above switch to trout nymphs.
Once I did that I cleaned my box out catching fish and losing the flys with break offs on the fish and in the bushes. Bringing a steelie to hand with on a number 14 pheasant tail is a new challenge. I hooked a dozen (complete transparancy: two were foul hooked) and landed three. A number were clean spits of the hook and I broke a couple off. The positive side is the first fish I caught had to be close to 15 lbs and was the first fish in 20 years of fly fishing (although only 2 steelheading) that ran me well into my backing. By far the largest fresh water fish I have ever caught.
In the spirit of our recent grip and grin debate it took a long time to bring this fish to net so I elected to get the healthy and clean release versus the posterity shot.
I also saw a monster lake run brown exit the water chasing an emerger and a few risers. I took a stab on the dry flies but didnt get any takers.
The best part is I found this area arounda bend about 200 yards from one of the typical Elk Creek huddle holes and I couldnt see another soul in either direction.
Fun day....
PatrickC
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^^^AWESOME POST!!!
FarmerDave
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Pat, of course I have experienced (and seen) steelhead strike hit a streamer on the swing. I can even do one better than that. I once caught a fresh steelhead above Vrooman Rd on the Grand on a large jointed rebel minnow. It's a floating plug with small lib, so it was just under the surface. I saw the wake coming from the other side of the pool like a torpedo.
Verdict is still out whether that was a feeding strike, or I just pissed her off, but being that fresh... I'll go with feeding.
Sure they sometimes feed. I didn't say they didn't. But if you read my earlier post as written, it is hard to deny. If only a few people fished for them, then maybe I'd feel differently, but...
And BTW, I don't normally fish for steelhead with bass equipment, but that day it was all that I had in my truck and I fond myself near a stream and ...
And Pat, I clearly did not say all, I only said majority which technically would be anything greater than half plus 1. And we both know there are a lot of fish lined both on purpose and not.
And if you don't think you are accidentally flossing fish from time to time, next time you are out, pay attention which side of the mouth the hook is in. The first one you caught on Saturday was in fact flossed. The hook was on the far side of the mouth. I watched you, unhook it but decided not to bust your balls about it. At least not then. Shame on you.;-)
Verdict is still out whether that was a feeding strike, or I just pissed her off, but being that fresh... I'll go with feeding.
Sure they sometimes feed. I didn't say they didn't. But if you read my earlier post as written, it is hard to deny. If only a few people fished for them, then maybe I'd feel differently, but...
And BTW, I don't normally fish for steelhead with bass equipment, but that day it was all that I had in my truck and I fond myself near a stream and ...
And Pat, I clearly did not say all, I only said majority which technically would be anything greater than half plus 1. And we both know there are a lot of fish lined both on purpose and not.
And if you don't think you are accidentally flossing fish from time to time, next time you are out, pay attention which side of the mouth the hook is in. The first one you caught on Saturday was in fact flossed. The hook was on the far side of the mouth. I watched you, unhook it but decided not to bust your balls about it. At least not then. Shame on you.;-)
fishingood
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I'm not an expert or science guy, but I would also think that fishing pressure, and the current habit, may have something to do with the motivation for striking a fly.
Case in point, in addition to fly fishing, I fish bass tournaments. In the spring, they spawn. If I cast a plastic lizard near a bed with a spawned female on it, she we will likely strike it out of defense, not necessarily out of hunger, in fact, sometimes they will just push it off the bed before I can even set a hook on them. Also, I've heard that sometimes fish will hit something unfamiliar just to see what it is.
Now, take Manchester hole, choked with fish, and massive amounts of anglers casting to them day in and day out, and the fish have very few places to hide. Being so skittish, the only defense they really have is to shut down and not eat anything, and avoid everything drifted in front of them like the plague. But, that of course isn't going to keep anglers from continuing throwing every fly in the box at them. However, if you cast to a fish many times, eventually you can get it to strike. I've heard the theory that this happens because the fish strikes out of frustration, and may just want the fly to leave it alone. This seems somewhat plausable to me.
However, I would not consider it to be much of a reaction strike if the fish follows the fly for a few feet before taking it, as was the case for the fish that took the mouse. To me, a reaction strike would be more of the fish whacking the fly the second it sees it, or the second it hits the water, sort of an impulse. For example, last time I was up, was fishing a pod with one other guy. Was doing pretty well, however, there was one fish I continued to observe. About every ten minutes, it would come up and gulp on the surface, as if taking an emerger. Saw some fish moving up and settling in the lower section of the pool, so decided to toss my glo bug into the pod. Sure enough, this same fly twice came up and whacked my orange indicator, almost as soon as it hit the water. I remember reading somewhere the theory that this could be an instinct reaction of the fish, installed by the pellets they are fed in the hatchery.
Again, I could be wrong, not saying I'm an expert on the philosophy of a steelhead's behavior, just some reasonable theories. Not knocking anyone's catch. In the end, if you manage to have a trophy fish take your fly, and land it, who cares why it hit.
Case in point, in addition to fly fishing, I fish bass tournaments. In the spring, they spawn. If I cast a plastic lizard near a bed with a spawned female on it, she we will likely strike it out of defense, not necessarily out of hunger, in fact, sometimes they will just push it off the bed before I can even set a hook on them. Also, I've heard that sometimes fish will hit something unfamiliar just to see what it is.
Now, take Manchester hole, choked with fish, and massive amounts of anglers casting to them day in and day out, and the fish have very few places to hide. Being so skittish, the only defense they really have is to shut down and not eat anything, and avoid everything drifted in front of them like the plague. But, that of course isn't going to keep anglers from continuing throwing every fly in the box at them. However, if you cast to a fish many times, eventually you can get it to strike. I've heard the theory that this happens because the fish strikes out of frustration, and may just want the fly to leave it alone. This seems somewhat plausable to me.
However, I would not consider it to be much of a reaction strike if the fish follows the fly for a few feet before taking it, as was the case for the fish that took the mouse. To me, a reaction strike would be more of the fish whacking the fly the second it sees it, or the second it hits the water, sort of an impulse. For example, last time I was up, was fishing a pod with one other guy. Was doing pretty well, however, there was one fish I continued to observe. About every ten minutes, it would come up and gulp on the surface, as if taking an emerger. Saw some fish moving up and settling in the lower section of the pool, so decided to toss my glo bug into the pod. Sure enough, this same fly twice came up and whacked my orange indicator, almost as soon as it hit the water. I remember reading somewhere the theory that this could be an instinct reaction of the fish, installed by the pellets they are fed in the hatchery.
Again, I could be wrong, not saying I'm an expert on the philosophy of a steelhead's behavior, just some reasonable theories. Not knocking anyone's catch. In the end, if you manage to have a trophy fish take your fly, and land it, who cares why it hit.
pcray1231
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hehe, it's possible. Your right, though, I noticed too. Hook was in the corner of it's mouth, but on the RIGHT side. I noticed it because when I got the hemo's out I went right after the left side, and it wasn't there, and I had to turn him a little to access the other side. If he was facing upstream, that means I hooked him on the far side corner of the mouth.
I couldn't see fish or bottom there, had no idea if there was a fish there, etc. So I have no idea. Was just fishing water and got a hit. He hit pretty hard, with a noticable thump. I told myself that with those swirling waters in that eddy, he coulda been facing down. Or, maybe the fly passed him by and he turned around and chased. Or, maybe I indeed flossed him. We'll never know.
Nonetheless, the water didn't really come down during the day. It merely got warmer. And we went from a morning where there was an occasional "hit" or "rolling a fish", with no real hook ups or landings anywhere in sight, to a lot of people hooking up on a fairly regular basis. I'm guessing those morning "hits" may have been cases of flossings. But have my doubts if we all very suddenly got a lot better at flossing them later in the morning. They started eating.
I couldn't see fish or bottom there, had no idea if there was a fish there, etc. So I have no idea. Was just fishing water and got a hit. He hit pretty hard, with a noticable thump. I told myself that with those swirling waters in that eddy, he coulda been facing down. Or, maybe the fly passed him by and he turned around and chased. Or, maybe I indeed flossed him. We'll never know.
Nonetheless, the water didn't really come down during the day. It merely got warmer. And we went from a morning where there was an occasional "hit" or "rolling a fish", with no real hook ups or landings anywhere in sight, to a lot of people hooking up on a fairly regular basis. I'm guessing those morning "hits" may have been cases of flossings. But have my doubts if we all very suddenly got a lot better at flossing them later in the morning. They started eating.
PatrickC
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I don't think anyone would question that people floss all trout and salmon. Even at that, you have to work pretty hard at it. The fish we saw Tuesday were moving out of the way like crazy even for 4x tippet. Any time you fish a run with a big pod of fish you are running the chance of foul-hooking a fish in someway. Sometimes out of your own motivation and sometimes not. A big pod of fish gets spooked by something and 25 fish scatter...you'll hook one in the butt or something.
So, I guess the important thing is to discuss how to cut back on foul hooking and inadvertent flossing (debating the rest until we're blue in the face is really pointless):
Not hard at all really. CONTROL YOUR DEPTH
Sort out in the 1st few drifts what the depth of the run is. Tightly control the distance between the indicator and the offering. And remember, the goal of dead-drifting is to keep that line as close to 90 degrees south of the indicator as you can. Controlling your depth comes down to figuring out how to weight the line so that the line can get down through the flow for that run and rapidly get right under that indicator. It will take you some study time and many hours of monkeying with it on the stream to sort this out.
If the run is 30" deep and you have 36" of line between your indicator and your fly...as Farmer Dave is hinting at, you are setting yourself up to floss in stained water or inadvertently foul hook the belly, dorsal fin, or tail.
So, hey, knowledge is power. If you have struggled with this, now you have some food for thought and you can start hammering it out next time you are on the stream.
So, I guess the important thing is to discuss how to cut back on foul hooking and inadvertent flossing (debating the rest until we're blue in the face is really pointless):
Not hard at all really. CONTROL YOUR DEPTH
Sort out in the 1st few drifts what the depth of the run is. Tightly control the distance between the indicator and the offering. And remember, the goal of dead-drifting is to keep that line as close to 90 degrees south of the indicator as you can. Controlling your depth comes down to figuring out how to weight the line so that the line can get down through the flow for that run and rapidly get right under that indicator. It will take you some study time and many hours of monkeying with it on the stream to sort this out.
If the run is 30" deep and you have 36" of line between your indicator and your fly...as Farmer Dave is hinting at, you are setting yourself up to floss in stained water or inadvertently foul hook the belly, dorsal fin, or tail.
So, hey, knowledge is power. If you have struggled with this, now you have some food for thought and you can start hammering it out next time you are on the stream.
fishingood
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This new USGS Waterdata mobile app is truly a gem, although it appears last night didnt do much, the weather radars have the Erie area completely covered in green and yellow, with the gauges slowly rising, should make for some decent conditions for the weekend.
A quick PSA, according to the forecast, winds in the area may be damaging tonight, gusting up to around 70 mph. So, anyone in Erie the area, or planning to travel to or from tonight, will want to use extreme caution, and avoid the heavily wooded areas if possible.
A quick PSA, according to the forecast, winds in the area may be damaging tonight, gusting up to around 70 mph. So, anyone in Erie the area, or planning to travel to or from tonight, will want to use extreme caution, and avoid the heavily wooded areas if possible.
PatrickC
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Prostate Specific Antigen ?
The old guys on the forum with get that :-D
pcray1231
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The thing about keeping the fly directly under the indicator is a good one, and it ain't easy, specially in deep, fast water. For instance, even with plenty of weight (3 full bb sized shot spread out), I had about 5 or 6 feet below my indicator to be able to reach bottom that day.
You notice that if you cast, say, at a 45 degree angle up and out, well, that fly hits the water well beyond the indi. In slow, deep water, that's fine. It goes below it in short order. Heck, you can see the indi go out as the fly pulls it, it looks like it's being pulled away from you. Once it stabilizes, that fly is nearly below the indi like a bobber.
Not so in faster water. By the time it gets below it, your drift is nearly done. And, when I was trying to fish that little dark lane on the shale, well, my indi might have been over the lane, but that doesn't mean my fly was in it. It was beyond it. So either you cast shorter and guess how far your fly is beyond the indi. Or you cast more like due upstream with a touch of a hook, so that the fly lands directly upstream of the indi, rather than further out. The indi may lead the fly through the lane, but they're at least following the same lane. If you're hitting bottom of that lane occasionally, you're in about the right place. When you set up on your first snag, you're gonna find out how far back that fly is. If it's pretty far, add weight and shorten the distance between indi and fly.
You notice that if you cast, say, at a 45 degree angle up and out, well, that fly hits the water well beyond the indi. In slow, deep water, that's fine. It goes below it in short order. Heck, you can see the indi go out as the fly pulls it, it looks like it's being pulled away from you. Once it stabilizes, that fly is nearly below the indi like a bobber.
Not so in faster water. By the time it gets below it, your drift is nearly done. And, when I was trying to fish that little dark lane on the shale, well, my indi might have been over the lane, but that doesn't mean my fly was in it. It was beyond it. So either you cast shorter and guess how far your fly is beyond the indi. Or you cast more like due upstream with a touch of a hook, so that the fly lands directly upstream of the indi, rather than further out. The indi may lead the fly through the lane, but they're at least following the same lane. If you're hitting bottom of that lane occasionally, you're in about the right place. When you set up on your first snag, you're gonna find out how far back that fly is. If it's pretty far, add weight and shorten the distance between indi and fly.
FarmerDave
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If the run is 30" deep and you have 36" between your bobber and fly, then your fly likely isn't near the bottom. But I know what you mean. Has more do do with positioning of weight versus fly or flies. I'm not going to better describe how to rig up to increase your odds of flossing because it might encourage the practice, but I'll bet you know what I mean.
As an off topic to this. You should look into transition lenses (vs tri-focal). That is what i have for my safety glasses. Bottom is for close up and there is a gradual transition to the main lenses giving excellent intermediate vision.
I didn't think i would like bifocals, so I only got them on the safety glasses, but now I find myself wearing the safety glasses all the time.
P
ponner1us
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"And if you don't think you are accidentally flossing fish from time to time, next time you are out, pay attention which side of the mouth the hook is in. The first one you caught on Saturday was in fact flossed. The hook was on the far side of the mouth."
I must be missing something obvious here, but this makes absolutely zero sense to me. No disrespect meant, but don't all fish strike from both sides of the mouth? And countless times I've watched a trout follow a fly, ignore it, then turn to strike.
I must be missing something obvious here, but this makes absolutely zero sense to me. No disrespect meant, but don't all fish strike from both sides of the mouth? And countless times I've watched a trout follow a fly, ignore it, then turn to strike.
PatrickC
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That is what I have for my everyday glasses. I'm getting ready to check into seeing if you can get them tinted and polarized.
fishingood
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That is great advice on keeping your fly as under the indicator as possible. Another key point is to keep your rod tip up high, and keep as much of the line between your fly tip and your indicator out of the water, in order to avoid your line getting caught in any backwashes or whirlpool, and to help get the all important, drag free drift.
PatrickC
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He's saying if you are standing on the stream so that you are on the right side of the fish with the fish pointed into the flow....if your hook is on the outside of the left side of the mouth, it's likely that your line came straight across the fishes open mouth. What you felt as a "hit" was really just your fly banging into the left side of the fishes jaw and not the fish actually trying to eat the fly.
It's a valid thought and it is a common practice, especially with salmon. And he is saying, you may not be doing that on purpose, but it does happen that way. That is true. Actually less true in clear water vs stained water. In clear water they can see 4x and 5x fluoro and move right out of the way.
PatrickC
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Very true of the Erie tribs because they are so small. That's why I use an 11' rod. Essentially high stick nymphing with or without an indie. Now, you do need to learn to manage you line better with mending, because not all creeks are only 4' across. There a many times on bigger water where your line management with mending is essential.
But to your point...the tighter your line of the drift, the better able you are to get a hook-set even on a subtle hit of a tiny nymph.
FarmerDave
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True, short people should us longer rods for this. :-D
M
mario66pens
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I'll be headed up sunday-tuesday, if anyone wants to fish or grab a beer later on let me know.
pro4mance
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I fit into the vertically challenged group
StarvinMarvin
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good points today, but I have found, that in riffles, I often have more luck with line length longer than what I think the pool is. OR 1.5x what the depth is. I can say that I have only foul hooked one fish this year that looked like a strike. and as far as back washes go, I fish them and often let drag swing soft hackles through them, and try to pull up in front of fish. so far this year its made for some awesome fishing.
As far as the steelhead reacting to eating debate, one night I took my neighbor out to spot this field that had a 14 pt in it for 4 days straight at the same time. well he wasn't there. The neighbor being an old wise guy said "eating is a tough habit to break" I never relate to that hunting but often times I find myself saying it on the tribs.
As far as the steelhead reacting to eating debate, one night I took my neighbor out to spot this field that had a 14 pt in it for 4 days straight at the same time. well he wasn't there. The neighbor being an old wise guy said "eating is a tough habit to break" I never relate to that hunting but often times I find myself saying it on the tribs.
