New Trespassing Law

[larkmark]

Just wanted to mention another option for those wanting to post.

Permission ONLY

Your primary goal is to know who is using your property.
You welcome fishing and or hunting but have had problems.
You've made the decision to post, but want to show you support hunting and fishing.
You want to continue to allow other public access such as hiking.

You can be specific about how you want people using the property without completely making it off limits. This seems like a win win for all.

I am considering this more and more not because I have had problems but more to let neighbors know my attitude about people using my land. It is a way of giving back. Just my take.

It would also give me an opportunity to have the discussion with my neighbors about me and my family being prohibited from hunting or even following a blood trail on to their property while they have hunted and driven deer on our place for years.

 

[PennKev]

larkmark :

It would also give me an opportunity to have the discussion with my neighbors about me and my family being prohibited from hunting or even following a blood trail on to their property while they have hunted and driven deer on our place for years.

At the risk of both derailing this topic and prolonging the thread, the situation with your neighbors deserves a confrontation, whether you put up signs or not. Landowners who do not allow recovery of animals are despicable, even more so when they deny that to a neighbor who allows them to hunt. I would go so far as to tell them they, specifically, are not allowed to hunt until they extended a minimum of simple courtesy and ethics to fellow hunters by allowing recovery of game.

 

[Mwheaps32]

[/quote]

At the risk of both derailing this topic and prolonging the thread, the situation with your neighbors deserves a confrontation, whether you put up signs or not. Landowners who do not allow recovery of animals are despicable, even more so when they deny that to a neighbor who allows them to hunt. I would go so far as to tell them they, specifically, are not allowed to hunt until they extended a minimum of simple courtesy and ethics to fellow hunters by allowing recovery of game. [/quote]

The game commission never wants to get involved in situations like this. If you've made a reasonable attempt with the land owner to recover the game and are denied access they aren't coming to help you out. This is always a sad reality of hunting in PA in some areas.

 

[larkmark]

Mwheaps- You are right. I once helped a guy track a deer. Clear blood trail right up to a fenced area on private property. Stood there with hunter and then later game warden and could clearly see the dead deer. He would not get it. It was inside a power company property.

 

[ColdBore]

PennKev wrote:

... the situation with your neighbors deserves a confrontation, ...

Why does it have to be a confrontation? Go in with that attitude and you're further cementing the neighbor's position.

PennKev wrote:

.. until they extended a minimum of simple courtesy and ethics to fellow hunters ...

Change hunters to landowners, and look what we're back to.

And what about "the law is clear" when it happens to fall in this direction?

Seems to be one sided thinking.

Yes, it would be nice if the landowner allowed the recovery of a wounded deer, but he is under the same obligation to permit that as hunters/fishermen are to ask permission to access unposted private property. None.

In the case above, maybe the two are related to events in the past, but nobody wants to think about that.

 

[Swattie87]

That’s a bit of an odd dynamic there. I could see if the neighbors didn’t hunt, but they clearly do, and you allow them on your property. I could also see them not wanting you actively hunting their land if they are, but not letting you track a shot deer? There’s usually a pretty straight forward gentleman’s agreement amongst hunters when it comes to that. Heck, most guys will call off their hunt to help you. That’s weird. Yeah, merits some polite discussion on the concept of reciprocity probably.

My FIL has the former situation at his camp on one of his property borders. The woman who owns the other side of that border is very anti-hunting, and enjoys watching the deer. Her property is posted, and she strictly enforces no hunting and will not allow hunters on to her property to track or recover a deer. She made this clear when they bought the property. She came over with a plate of cookies, and very nicely explained her posting of her property, and her expectations of her new neighbors respecting it. Simple enough. (They later learned from several other neighbors that once she’s had that polite conversation with you, if you disrespect her wishes, she simply calls law enforcement, explains her property is posted and that she’s previously told you you can’t hunt or recover a deer on it, and pushes the responding officer to move forward with charges. I assume at least one of them learned that the hard way.) And yes, tracking a shot deer is not justification for trespassing and does not get you out of a trespassing citation.

I don’t personally agree with not allowing someone to recover a shot deer, but I fully endorse and support her right to do what she likes with her land. If you shoot a deer at their camp, just hope it doesn’t run north, bottom line.

 

[dc410]

Swattie87 wrote:

I don’t personally agree with not allowing someone to recover a shot deer, but I fully endorse and support her right to do what she likes with her land. If you shoot a deer at their camp, just hope it doesn’t run north, bottom line.

It sure makes stand location and shot placement more important than ever ... but maybe it should be anyway.

 

[PennKev]

Swattie87 wrote:

I don’t personally agree with not allowing someone to recover a shot deer, but I fully endorse and support her right to do what she likes with her land.

My stance exactly. Even though I have extremely low regard for such people there is nothing I can do.

Fortunately for Lark there is something he can do as he has a bargaining chip that could help to resolve the problem.

 

[PennKev]

ColdBore wrote:

And what about "the law is clear" when it happens to fall in this direction?

You seem to be still hung up on the idea that some of us want to take something from you or deny your rights. That is not the case. Most of the posts on this thread have been centered around trying to get you to understand the actual law as it is written, and how many if not most anglers view it in regard to how they access land. Your hang up seems to be that you expect everyone to view things exactly the way you do and your beliefs and morals should be held by everyone. It's not that your ideas are wrong, it is simply that they are different than what is widely accepted in relation to the importance of posted signs in PA, both from a legal standpoint and from a standpoint of easily communicating your wishes to others. If you want to grant access but require a one on one meeting, post that information on the signage you put up.

Please see my above reply to Swattie. As a hunter who takes the responsibility of killing very seriously, I detest anyone who would deny a hunter from recovering a deer. There's nothing I can do about it, but I still hate it. In comparison, you can have things exactly the way you want it by acknowledging the law, acknowledging the importance of posted signs, and posting your land with appropriate wording on the signs.

 

[PALongbow]

My recommendation is that if you want to control the land then work hard to purchase some land for yourself and control it. I always dreamed of being a landowner when I was younger and was able to purchase land here later in life. In all honestly its a pain in the backside to be a landowner in PA mainly due to people trespassing and acting badly when I tell them to stay off my land. Some people are truly idiots and just can't help themselves. I posted my land for various different reasons and especially for me to use and it doesn't mean that I have to share it with the rest of the world. Again either buy land for yourself or deal with asking permission to enter the land.....Don't be an entitled jerk.

Ron

 

[ColdBore]

PennKev wrote:

You seem to be still hung up on the idea that some of us want to take something from you or deny your rights. That is not the case. Most of the posts on this thread have been centered around trying to get you to understand the actual law as it is written, and how many if not most anglers view it in regard to how they access land.

Nope, no hang up, and I understand the law perfectly.

I also understand that the signs that were finished being put up today give *me* the right to start quoting laws and statutes to the entitlement crowd that take other people's stuff for granted.

I guess maybe I was naive to think that "sportsmen" still had common courtesy, even if not a legal requirement.

You want to get formal and start using laws, then fine, I'll play along.

There is no expectation any more, it is now a legal requirement.... stay out.

 

[Swattie87]

ColdBore wrote:

Nope, no hang up, and I understand the law perfectly.

I also understand that the signs that were finished being put up today give *me* the right to start quoting laws and statutes to the entitlement crowd that take other people's stuff for granted.

I guess maybe I was naive to think that "sportsmen" still had common courtesy, even if not a legal requirement.

You want to get formal and start using laws, then fine, I'll play along.

There is no expectation any more, it is now a legal requirement.... stay out.

Yep, you’re spot on now. I mean, you coulda quoted whatever laws and statutes you wanted before too, but now you’re using them correctly to your benefit to achieve the desired outcome for you and your property...You want people to ask you first. Now they have a moral AND legal requirement to. (Even if in your eyes the moral requirement always should have been enough by itself.) Good stuff.

 

[PennKev]

ColdBore wrote:
You want to get formal and start using laws, then fine, I'll play along.

FANTASTIC!

That's all anyone really expects from you because it is the only way everyone can easily be on the same page and in total understanding of each other. There is no grey area. No moral debate. Nothing. If you are properly posted and someone enters your land they are wrong and you are right. If you do not post, you you should not be surprised or offended by others who are acting legally.

 

[PALongbow]

I don't have to post the entry way to my home so why is my land any different? If your on my property whether posted or not... your trespassing.

Ron

 

[Swattie87]

PALongbow wrote:
I don't have to post the entry way to my home so why is my land any different?

Ron

Quite simply, because the law distinguishes someone entering your front door from someone entering your unposted land, as it should.

If your land is posted, the law still distinguishes it from your front door, but they’re effectively much more similar in that case. Except the punishment for your front door is a lot more significant than your posted land, as it should be.

You said your property is posted Ron, so you’re good to go.

 

[moon1284]

PALongbow wrote:
My recommendation is that if you want to control the land then work hard to purchase some land for yourself and control it. I always dreamed of being a landowner when I was younger and was able to purchase land here later in life. In all honestly its a pain in the backside to be a landowner in PA mainly due to people trespassing and acting badly when I tell them to stay off my land. Some people are truly idiots and just can't help themselves. I posted my land for various different reasons and especially for me to use and it doesn't mean that I have to share it with the rest of the world. Again either buy land for yourself or deal with asking permission to enter the land.....Don't be an entitled jerk.

Ron

Or you could purchase land, not post it, and benefit others as well as yourself.

 

[jifigz]

I'm really not sure why, when the law of our Commonwealth was clearly stated earlier I'm this thread, that there is any confusion. It is black and white. The point of the thread is posted land may now be marked by 2 purple stripes painted on something. The rest has been beaten to death and we are still arguing about it.

 

[ColdBore]

moon1284 wrote:

Or you could purchase land, not post it, and benefit others as well as yourself.

And there it is, again.

 

[larkmark]

Growing up many of us who are over 50 will recall wandering the woods, fields and streams and mountains without a care. Very little was posted and although much of it was owned by someone there was not such furor over ownership etc. I have heard that situation referred to as "Tolerated Trespassing" although that may not be the right term. Although many of the places were owned by people I did not know I always got a friendly wave as I walked by with my gun. Many of my best hunting areas were railroad or power company properties and they were all open to use for hiking, camping and hunting and fishing. Things began to change at some point and posters went up everywhere. It was sad to see. This happened in most part because of a change in attitudes by landowners. Some will say it is because of littering or driving on fields or poaching and that may be true to an extent. But in my experience it was mostly about as I said, a change in attitude which I don't think is related to bad actions necessarily. Some may call it selfishness or greed or the me generation or people just getting very concerned about owning and having exclusive and private property or maybe mistrust and fearful ideas about others. When the farms around here went up for sale the new people posted.Some were big corporate type outfits and some were more urban types who came from out of our area. I will not judge it but it is a different world view. It is not the neighborly old ways that I grew up with. Those good old days are gone. I try to leave our place open as a reminder of that time. I like seeing a young guy walking out across our field with a rifle. It reminds me of myself a long time ago.

 

[Jessed]

Every year land becomes more and more valuable and hard to come by. I wonder in the future if it will get to a point where 90% of land is private and a incredible luxury. I would have loved to been alive In the 70s and purchased a ton of land, even a small lot in south Philadelphia and you’d be set for life