New Trespassing Law

[jifigz]

troutbert wrote:
The reason many landowners have their land posted isn't littering, or blocking of lanes, or other rude behavior.

Many landowners never intended to have the land open to the public from the time they bought the land. I'm not blaming them for that.

I'm just pointing it out because it's true and is rarely mentioned in these discussions. And you need to know that to keep your thinking and discussing of the topic realistic.

And that information points out the great importance of public lands.

True enough.

 

[larkmark]

troutbert is correct.
In my neck of the woods there are several things that have caused more posting and loss of access to public. The leasing of large tracts for hunting by clubs is a huge factor. Also a new type of people have come to the area. These are not rural types but suburban/ city people who take some satisfaction in the wildlife as "pets" and view hunting and even fishing as wrong. There are also those who would not have cared about hunting or even walking on their land who have become suspicious and paranoid about "strangers". The last category are the ones who will approach with guns out and make ridiculous threats about shooting trespassers. I am speaking from point of view of almost 60 yrs of being a rural landowner. We choose not to post our 80 some acres of mixed woods and fields. Few access it and even fewer hunt it although it has deer and turkey. My neighbors all post and patrol their properties and somewhat ironically do drive my woods for deer while I do not have permission on their place. Things are changing in rural PA!

 

[troutbert]

Bamboozle wrote:

troutbert wrote:
The reason many landowners have their land posted isn't littering, or blocking of lanes, or other rude behavior.

Many landowners never intended to have the land open to the public from the time they bought the land. I'm not blaming them for that.

I'm just pointing it out because it's true and is rarely mentioned in these discussions. And you need to know that to keep your thinking and discussing of the topic realistic.

And that information points out the great importance of public lands.

So these people were lying:

Mike wrote:
Having had brief to lengthy discussions with probably hundreds of landowners over the years, primarily on stocked trout streams, but sometimes on unstocked wild trout streams, the primary cause of posting on previously open private property in reaction to angler behavior was littering. A common one in farm country where littering wasn’t the cause was anglers carelessly leaving gates open, putting valuable farm animals at risk.

No, they weren't lying. Mike made it clear that he was talking about "posting on previously open private property."

My post was about a different scenario. Landowners whose land was closed to the public from they day they bought it. Who never considered having it open to the public.

 

[ryansheehan]

ColdBore wrote:

ColdBore wrote:
I just expect some common courtesy, which seems to be disappearing at a rapid rate in today's world.

ryansheehan wrote:

What seems like common courtesy to you is not always obvious for others.

Common courtesy....

Not always obvious.....

You about summed it up right there.

It sure *used* to be obvious, but today's population, and what they consider to be acceptable, is changing.

I'll change with it now.

Common courtesy is a two way street, seems to me both sides failed in this example.

 

[ColdBore]

ryansheehan wrote:

Common courtesy is a two way street, seems to me both sides failed in this example.

So I failed, while allowing almost unlimited access?

 

[mote1977]

Larkmark, landowners have the responsibility to post accurately??? So you’re saying if there’s no posted signs it’s ok to trespass on private property? It’s your responsibility to know if your on public land or trespassing. This is the only state where the majority feel like they have the right to just go onto someone else’s land and do as they please. Try hunting or fishing on someone’s land in Ohio or pretty much any other Midwest state without permission and see how that goes. And that’s whether it’s posted or not.

 

[Swattie87]

mote1977 wrote:
landowners have the responsibility to post accurately??? So you’re saying if there’s no posted signs it’s ok to trespass on private property?

If there’s no posted signs (or purple paint now), or other reasonable notification from the landowner that the land is not open, it’s not trespassing in PA. You may not think it’s morally ok, as many do, but it’s not trespassing. afish posted the applicable law earlier in the thread. Check it out.

Once the landowner posts land, or otherwise reasonably informs the public or an individual that access is forbidden, then it becomes trespassing.

Not sure of the laws in other states, but in PA, the onus is on the landowner to inform the public. Like it or not. If not, may I suggest you contact your state legislative representatives and push them to pursue new legislation on the subject.

Yes, the person accessing the land has the responsibility to know if they’re accessing it legally. But under the law in PA, unposted land is legal to access. Posted land is not. The law as it sits is straight forward and clear. Whether anyone thinks it’s morally right to do so without asking permission is a separate debate.

PAFF Landowners: If you don’t want people accessing your land, or accessing it without your permission, post it. That’s what PA law suggests you should do. Problem solved. Assuming you own the land, you have our full support!

 

[larkmark]

mote- I am saying landowners have responsibilities under the law for many things including posting properly if they want to do so. Maintaining signage and being sure boundaries are properly marked is one. The law and tradition in PA may not be to your liking but it is the law as stated by Swattie and others here. In my many years I have had very few issues on my land or on others land. I have been twice charged with trespass and went to court with a certain railroad that does not know where it's boundaries are and both times the judge threw the case out of court. The neighbor here at my place attempted to creep signs onto our place in order to control a trail that goes onto our land and that became an issue. I'm not telling you how to handle your land or others. Of course having permission or better yet written permission is the best but it is not always feasible. I never go on posted land without asking.

 

[ryansheehan]

mote1977 wrote:
Larkmark, landowners have the responsibility to post accurately??? So you’re saying if there’s no posted signs it’s ok to trespass on private property?

That is the law in PA.

 

[ColdBore]

I just sit here and shake my head at those that keep wanting to say they don't have a problem using others land without asking while smugly saying "because that's the law".

And they are the same ones complaining about less and less open land, and more land being posted every year.

Maybe some day they'll start to connect the dots. Maybe. But I doubt it.

 

[ryansheehan]

ColdBore wrote:

ryansheehan wrote:

Common courtesy is a two way street, seems to me both sides failed in this example.

So I failed, while allowing almost unlimited access?

Correct, you failed to make your intentions known. In PA if you want people to ask first you post your land, which by the way seems completely reasonable to me. If you would like to allow them access without permission you leave it unposted. When it comes to issues like this clarity is the most important thing. An encounter can go sideways very quickly when a land owner's wishes are not made clear.

 

[Swattie87]

I believe we may have reached an impasse.

And note that we are all early risers!

Some middle ground we can maybe all agree on?

1. Sportsmen SHOULD ask for permission to access private land, posted or unposted, but sometimes don’t. (From a moral, right thing to do standpoint, everyone in this thread has agreed on this point from the start.)

2. Despite the moral compass saying you should, the law in PA is clear that it’s not required that they ask for permission, on unposted land, to access it legally.

3. Understanding the combination of #1 and #2, landowners who wish to control access to their land via permission (which is perfectly reasonable), and have legal recourse against those who don’t ask permission, should post their land.

4. Every landowner should make up their own mind based on what is right for them and their land. Period.

5. All sportsmen should respect the wishes of the landowner. Period.

Fair enough?

 

[ryansheehan]

Swattie87 wrote:
I believe we may have reached an impasse.

And note that we are all early risers!

Some middle ground we can maybe all agree on?

1. People SHOULD ask for permission to access private land, posted or unposted, but often don’t.

2. The law in PA is clear that it’s not required that they ask for permission, on unposted land, to access it legally.

3. Landowners who wish to control access to their land via permission, and be able to prosecute under the law against those who don’t, should post their land.

Fair enough?

Good points.

 

[afishinado]

When fishing, if there is a house or farm near the area of land I wish to fish, I ask permission.

I've written this a few times, but no one addressed it.

A real-life scenario when stream fishing in the rural mountainous areas is there are no houses or farms and no one to ask permission to enter unposted land at a pull-off along the road and next to the stream. So what do you do in this case?

1. Keep driving because you can't ID the landowner and ask permission to enter.

2. Pull out a Plat or tax map of the area to ID the owner and drive to their address to gain permission.

3. Do research and try to contact the owner in writing for a future trip?

4. Pull over, park and fish since there's a safe pull-off and no posted signs.

Be honest....

 

[jifigz]

Well Tom, I definitely go for option #4. If it looks "used" and there is a pull off I park and fish. While fishing upstream or downstream or whatever and I come across a posted sign on the trees on each side of the stream and that would halt my progress. One positive thing about posted signs is that they are to be signed so you can easily see who owns the land. Purple paint will not provide the same level of info and require more digging to find the landowner.

 

[Swattie87]

afish - I very rarely fish privately owned land. I’m a small stream guy and there are more small streams available on publicly owned land (State/National Forest, SGL, State Parks, Nature Preserves - check the specific rules individually on those) in PA than I’ll ever fish in my lifetime. I generally just choose to avoid privately owned land, posted or not, and don’t worry about it.

The only private land I regularly fish is in the upper Kettle watershed, near the camp I’m a member at. I know the neighboring camps and have permission to fish there, though none of it is posted, and in that area folks generally allow walk in fishing without asking.

To answer your question, no. I would not fish private land, posted or not, without knowing for certain I had permission to be there...Either direct from the landowner, or through obvious fishing permitted signs at the location. I wouldn’t make a drive to a stream without knowing for certain first, or a back up plan in place if I couldn’t confirm permission to fish on arrival.

Are there some streams I’d like to fish but have written off because they’re on private (unposted in many cases) land, and I’m not certain of the landowner’s wishes? Yeah. But I know plenty of good ones where I know for certain I’m welcome to fish there. Could I fish some of those unposted streams? Yeah, probably, but I’d rather not being worrying about stuff like that when out fishing.

Edit: I’ll add that none of the above makes me right or wrong in any way. It’s just how I choose to handle it and spend my relatively little valuable time to fish. As long as what you’re doing is legal, I’ll have no issue with someone who chooses to look at the above differently than me.

 

[PennKev]

jifigz wrote:
Well Tom, I definitely go for option #4. If it looks "used" and there is a pull off I park and fish. While fishing upstream or downstream or whatever and I come across a posted sign on the trees on each side of the stream and that would halt my progress.

This is exactly the approach I have taken and in over 20 years of fishing PA the only bad encounter I have had with a landowner was on Spruce Creek while I was still within the public special regs area. In fact the encounters I have had with property owners have been decidedly positive. I have been invited to fish areas I would probably would not have otherwise, and gained easier access on several occasions. All of which has been unsolicited.

 

[moon1284]

afishinado wrote:
When fishing, if there is a house or farm near the area of land I wish to fish, I ask permission.

I've written this a few times, but no one addressed it.

A real-life scenario when stream fishing in the rural mountainous areas is there are no houses or farms and no one to ask permission to enter unposted land at a pull-off along the road and next to the stream. So what do you do in this case?

1. Keep driving because you can't ID the landowner and ask permission to enter.

2. Pull out a Plat or tax map of the area to ID the owner and drive to their address to gain permission.

3. Do research and try to contact the owner in writing for a future trip?

4. Pull over, park and fish since there's a safe pull-off and no posted signs.

Be honest....

#4 every time. If there's no posted signs I go right in. Out west if theres no lock on the gate, I go right in and shut the gate behind me.

If there are posted signs i dont ask, i just dont fish there. The landowner made it clear they dont want anyone on their property. If it's navigable water and posted, then I'll fish through it and try my best to stay within the high water mark. I wont walk through posted areas to reach navigable water.

 

[jifigz]

moon1284 wrote:

#4 every time. If there's no posted signs I go right in. Out west if theres no lock on the gate, I go right in and shut the gate behind me.

If there are posted signs i dont ask, i just dont fish there. The landowner made it clear they dont want anyone on their property. If it's navigable water and posted, then I'll fish through it and try my best to stay within the high water mark. I wont walk through posted areas to reach navigable water.[/quote].

You're missing out on good water by not asking. I've rarely been denied access to fish when I've asked to fish posted property. The land owners always seem to be more concerned with people wielding firearms and hunting.

 

[TimMurphy]

afishinado wrote:
When fishing, if there is a house or farm near the area of land I wish to fish, I ask permission.

I've written this a few times, but no one addressed it.

A real-life scenario when stream fishing in the rural mountainous areas is there are no houses or farms and no one to ask permission to enter unposted land at a pull-off along the road and next to the stream. So what do you do in this case?

1. Keep driving because you can't ID the landowner and ask permission to enter.

2. Pull out a Plat or tax map of the area to ID the owner and drive to their address to gain permission.

3. Do research and try to contact the owner in writing for a future trip?

4. Pull over, park and fish since there's a safe pull-off and no posted signs.

Be honest....

Dear afishinado,

#4 - At all times. Believe it or not I am courteous and respectful. I don't block lanes or park on lawns. If I encounter a posted sign I go back immediately. I pick up after myself and others who don't, and I do my best to leave a place as I would wish it to be left if I was the owner. That's just how I was raised.

The law is clear. Unposted land in PA has an assumed right of access for public fishing and hunting. I don't really fish suburban streams, so of course I won't just slog along through yards in pursuit of fish. If someone requests that I leave I don't argue, I simply leave.

Keep in mind that I fish primarily moving water, and for the most part I fish in places like you described, where houses and farms may be few and far between. If it somehow comes to having to get explicit permission to fish any land not owned by the public I'll quit fishing.

Regards,

Tim Murphy