New Trespassing Law

[larkmark]

Just thought I would throw this in for consideration of landowners and all of us. In PA you can hunt fish, trap or whatever on unfenced, unposted land. So landowners need to understand this. Of course if you are told to leave by landowner you must go. I don't know what the law says about posters and placement and signing them but it seems reasonable to have posters every so many feet and have them signed. Using purple spray paint in my opinion will invite all kinds of abuses including the posting of public or otherwise accessible land by those who do not own it. Landowners and public both have rights and responsibilities.

Pennsylvania's statute, 18 PA. CONS. STAT. ANN. § 3503 (West 2000), is
based on the Model Penal Code's trespass provision, which does not
specifically mention hunting but requires posting (or fencing or
enclosing) to exclude all trespassers from land (posting is not
required for buildings and occupied structures). See also infra notes
\l "F88"- \l "F89"
\l "B63"
Pennsylvania courts generally hold that posting is required to exclude
hunters. See, e.g., Commonwealth v. Sweeley, 29 Pa. D. & C.4th 426, 433
(C.P. 1995) ("Open lands that are not posted or fenced off are presumed
open for recreational use by the public, especially in rural counties
where hunting and outdoor activities are common."). Various secondary
sources provide general insight about whether and when landowners must
post to exclude hunters. The Model Penal Code's criminal trespass
provision, on which Pennsylvania's trespass statute is based, \l "F88"
requires landowners to post nonfenced land [*pg 565] (excluding
buildings and occupied structures) to exclude any would-be trespassers,
including hunters. \l "F89" The Restatement (Second) of Torts states
that,

f. . . it is the custom in wooded or rural areas to permit the
public to go hunting on private land . . . , anyone who goes hunting .
. . may reasonably assume, in the absence of posted notice or other
manifestation to the contrary, that there is the customary consent to
his entry upon private land to hunt or fish." \l "F90"

 

[TimMurphy]

larkmark wrote:
Just thought I would throw this in for consideration of landowners and all of us. In PA you can hunt fish, trap or whatever on unfenced, unposted land. So landowners need to understand this. Of course if you are told to leave by landowner you must go. I don't know what the law says about posters and placement and signing them but it seems reasonable to have posters every so many feet and have them signed. Using purple spray paint in my opinion will invite all kinds of abuses including the posting of public or otherwise accessible land by those who do not own it. Landowners and public both have rights and responsibilities.

Pennsylvania's statute, 18 PA. CONS. STAT. ANN. § 3503 (West 2000), is
based on the Model Penal Code's trespass provision, which does not
specifically mention hunting but requires posting (or fencing or
enclosing) to exclude all trespassers from land (posting is not
required for buildings and occupied structures). See also infra notes
\l "F88"- \l "F89"
\l "B63"
Pennsylvania courts generally hold that posting is required to exclude
hunters. See, e.g., Commonwealth v. Sweeley, 29 Pa. D. & C.4th 426, 433
(C.P. 1995) ("Open lands that are not posted or fenced off are presumed
open for recreational use by the public, especially in rural counties
where hunting and outdoor activities are common."). Various secondary
sources provide general insight about whether and when landowners must
post to exclude hunters. The Model Penal Code's criminal trespass
provision, on which Pennsylvania's trespass statute is based, \l "F88"
requires landowners to post nonfenced land [*pg 565] (excluding
buildings and occupied structures) to exclude any would-be trespassers,
including hunters. \l "F89" The Restatement (Second) of Torts states
that,

f. . . it is the custom in wooded or rural areas to permit the
public to go hunting on private land . . . , anyone who goes hunting .
. . may reasonably assume, in the absence of posted notice or other
manifestation to the contrary, that there is the customary consent to
his entry upon private land to hunt or fish." \l "F90"

Dear larkmark,

I agree with you 100% and I see many purple striped trees in our future, courtesy of A-holes.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[jifigz]

Coldbore,

[/quote]
Nobody is buying public land and turning it private. However, when somebody writes the check, and pays the taxes, they make the rules.

I didn't say that anyone was buying public land and posting it. I did say, however, that we need MORE public land and less landowners that treat their private property like some top secret military defense base. We do not post our 100+ acres and our neighbor doest not post his 220 acres. I am well aware that the person paying the taxes makes the rules.

Around my part of the state I can't remember the last time someone denied me access to fishing on their property when I asked. Hunting may be a totally different story and for obvious reasons.

 

[ColdBore]

Legal talk or not, common sense and courtesy should tell you that you don't just walk on to somebody else's property without express, not implied, permission.

Let me find you on my property, and you start spouting some statute to me trying to justify your presence there, and I promise you, you're not going to like the outcome.

It's entitled selfish fools like yourself that force more and more land to be posted, expressly prohibiting access to everybody. Go ahead, keep thinking that you can walk onto any farm or into any woodlot, and watch the signs continue to go up.

 

[larkmark]

coldbore- Have you ever researched a trout stream and then you go there and there is a dirt pull off along road next to the bridge and you look upstream through a woods and see rising fish and you get in the water and fish. In this situation are you telling me I must track down the landowner and get explicit permission before fishing?

 

[Bamboozle]

jifigz wrote:
I wish more people respected others' lands and didn't litter and whatnot and that more people allowed access to their property. We need more public space, not less...

So in your way of thinking is private space that a person allows you to access PUBLIC space?

Because it's NOT!

That is part of the problem. It like going to someone else's house and pi$$ing on the toilet seat because you do at your own house.

When you are on private property you should act like you are a guest, not an owner. Too many people today treat anything they don't own like crap. Rental cars get trashed, landlords deal with damage every day, public property is defaced, litter is tossed out the window, and campgrounds in and out of State Parks are a mess.

THAT'S why private property owners post. Slobs and inconsiderate A-holes are the #1 reason and jaggoffs (had to use that word once in my life) with an entitlement attitude are the #2 reason.

And fly fisherman are the #1 group within the #2 reason.

 

[Bamboozle]

larkmark wrote:
coldbore- Have you ever researched a trout stream and then you go there and there is a dirt pull off along road next to the bridge and you look upstream through a woods and see rising fish and you get in the water and fish. In this situation are you telling me I must track down the landowner and get explicit permission before fishing?

I ain't ColdBore but in my world, "researching" a stream means also finding out who owns the property BEFORE I drive up there.

If I can find out who the owner is, I contact them and ask. If I am unsure, I don't fish.

Keep assuming everything that isn't posted is open for your pleasure and expect more purple paint.

 

[Swattie87]

Post it! Post it all!

Backdraft - Donald Sutherland

Ok, so my actual, productive take:

Though not legally required to under current law, anglers SHOULD ask permission for fishing on privately owned, but un-posted land. It’s the polite, respectful thing to do.

Landowners who don’t post, but enforce their property as if it were posted (meaning they remove anyone who hasn’t asked permission, despite there being no legal requirement to) SHOULD just post it in the first place, and monitor who is granted permission that way. It’s the polite, respectful thing to do, if it is your intent to only grant access to those who ask.

 

[joebamboo]

It is just as easy for someone to put up signs on property they don't own as it would be to use purple paint. Arguing otherwise is silly.

Laws and rules only apply to those who understand the need for them.

We are our own worse enemies most of the time.

 

[PennKev]

Nobody has said a landowner doesn't have a right to post their land, nor has anyone said to ignore posted markings. If you own land, and don't want strangers coming and going at will, put up signs and contact your local authorities when a problem occurs. That's it. You are covered.

On the other hand, if you don't post you need to realize the realities of trespass law, and custom in Pennsylvania. These things vary from state to state, and what you think should be isn't necessarily so. Ohio, for instance, is different. There, you can be prosecuted for trespassing without any signs or prior warning.

Landownership is not without responsibility and restrictions. Providing notice via posting is the first step in excluding unwanted users of your land. You may not think that you should have to mark your land as posted, but the law would seem to indicate otherwise. You may think that hunters or fisherman who show up unannounced are morally deficient, but the PA law and court rulings indicate that such an individual is acting lawfully.

The point is that if you want people to stay out, then mark the land as posted. You then have legal high ground. However, do not threaten to post while claiming you land is already de facto posted without signage or markings. Such claims do not jive with what is published as law and are IMO an invitation to further conflict. If you wish to allow access on a case by case basis, that is fine and your right, but you still need the damn signs if you want it to work the way you intend.

 

[ColdBore]

larkmark wrote:

coldbore- Have you ever researched a trout stream and then you go there and there is a dirt pull off along road next to the bridge and you look upstream through a woods and see rising fish and you get in the water and fish.

PAFB does a pretty good job of securing access to lots of places. I'm sure you've seen the "Walk In Only" signs. I've also seen homemade signs to that effect.

If I don't see those signs, or know for sure that it is state land, or gyave advance permission from the landowner, then no, I don't just "get in the water and fish".

You might want to make that part of your research in the future.

larkmark wrote:

In this situation are you telling me I must track down the landowner and get explicit permission before fishing?

I'll say it one more time.....

Keep assuming and treating everything as if you have some sort of right to use other people's property, and you'll just keep seeing more and more signs (or paint) going up.

And you won't be smart enough to even realize why.

 

[ColdBore]

Bamboozle wrote:

larkmark wrote:

coldbore- Have you ever researched a trout stream and then you go there and there is a dirt pull off along road next to the bridge and you look upstream through a woods and see rising fish and you get in the water and fish. In this situation are you telling me I must track down the landowner and get explicit permission before fishing?

I ain't ColdBore but in my world, "researching" a stream means also finding out who owns the property BEFORE I drive up there.

If I can find out who the owner is, I contact them and ask. If I am unsure, I don't fish.

Keep assuming everything that isn't posted is open for your pleasure and expect more purple paint.

Thank you.

And you are spot on.

The next time somebody sees yet another property with new signs going up, they can probably thank larkmark and others that have the same entitled attitude.

 

[Swattie87]

In PA, as a landowner, if it’s your intent to only allow access to your land by those who ask permission first (which I fully support the landowner’s right to do), then it’s in your best interest to simply post it in the first place. Effectively, unposted land, but enforced as if it were posted, is posted land. Anglers aren't losing anything there. You’ll just have much better success under the law enforcing against someone who has accessed your land without your permission, if you’ve posted it. I’d argue more signs (or paint) going up in this instance is a good thing, as it makes things simpler for both parties in the event of a conflict.

I don’t know, but suspect, that most law enforcement wouldn’t think too much of a landowner serving their first notice to an angler that they’re not welcome on unposted land by coming up behind them and wielding a firearm. I think they would likely find a more reasonable approach would be to post the land in the first place (if it's your desire to monitor who accesses it), and call law enforcement when someone is accessing your land without your permission. Just a guess.

 

[jifigz]

Bamboozle wrote:

jifigz wrote:
I wish more people respected others' lands and didn't litter and whatnot and that more people allowed access to their property. We need more public space, not less...

So in your way of thinking is private space that a person allows you to access PUBLIC space?

Because it's NOT!

That is part of the problem. It like going to someone else's house and pi$$ing on the toilet seat because you do at your own house.

When you are on private property you should act like you are a guest, not an owner. Too many people today treat anything they don't own like crap. Rental cars get trashed, landlords deal with damage every day, public property is defaced, litter is tossed out the window, and campgrounds in and out of State Parks are a mess.

THAT'S why private property owners post. Slobs and inconsiderate A-holes are the #1 reason and jaggoffs (had to use that word once in my life) with an entitlement attitude are the #2 reason.

And fly fisherman are the #1 group within the #2 reason.

Lol. No. I do not think that private property is is public, nor did I say that. What I said is I think that we need MORE PUBLIC SPACE and that I wish people RESPECTED PRIVATE PROPERTY so more landowners were generous with their land. I always go through the motions and respect the signage/ask permission to use private ground and basically have never had anything but good outcomes and friendly relationships with land owners. When I said I wish there was more public space I mean just that, open to the public. If I didn't live in an area with a ton of state forest land I wouldn't be as happy. That I promise you.

Please read carefully and take the text as it is literally written because I'm not being facetious or deceptive at all....

 

[afishinado]

Pennsylvania courts generally hold that posting is required to exclude
hunters. See, e.g., Commonwealth v. Sweeley, 29 Pa. D. & C.4th 426, 433
(C.P. 1995) ("Open lands that are not posted or fenced off are presumed open for recreational use by the public, especially in rural counties mwhere hunting and outdoor activities are common."). Various secondary sources provide general insight about whether and when landowners must post to exclude hunters. The Model Penal Code's criminal trespass provision, on which Pennsylvania's trespass statute is based, \l "F88" requires landowners to post nonfenced land [*pg 565] (excluding buildings and occupied structures) to exclude any would-be trespassers, including hunters. \l "F89" The Restatement (Second) of Torts states
that,

f. . . it is the custom in wooded or rural areas to permit the
public to go hunting on private land . . . , anyone who goes hunting .
. . may reasonably assume, in the absence of posted notice or other
manifestation to the contrary, that there is the customary consent to
his entry upon private land to hunt or fish."

I've hunted and fished in PA for 50 years. I've never in all those years had an issue with a landowner. Actual PA law is highlighted above.

As others have stated, a landowner's has the right to post his land and not allow anyone to access. BTW, I own > 100 acres of land myself (it's not posted). If the landowner does not post their land, fishermen, hunters or hikers can assume the land is open for their access.

Access to land in PA has been like this for hundreds of years. Now more and more, rural areas have been bought up and more people from more urban areas post their land all over PA.

Those posting above stating that permission is needed to fish; for example to pull over and park off a wooded rural road next to a stream without any "posted signs" and fish is illegal? And one must access a plat map to find the owner of a wooded area and ask permission to pull off the road and fish on unposted land?

 

[ColdBore]

Okay, cool.

So there's a law that says I must allow others to use my land if it's not posted? And people want to throw it in my face?

And that I'll have enforceable rights if it is posted?

And I've got guys on here that have basically said they don't care, and will continue to use others property without permission?

Well guess what I just set time aside to do on Sunday?

Yep, it's getting formally posted. I'm done listening to others tell me that they can just walk on through as if they own it.

Every tree line, every fence, they'll all have nice bright yellow signs by the end of Sunday. And no more permission unless I know you personally. I'm done.

For those that actually respect others' properties, you know who you can thank.

 

[jifigz]

ColdBore wrote:
Okay, cool.

So there's a law that says I must allow others to use my land if it's not posted? And people want to throw it in my face?

And that I'll have enforceable rights if it is posted?

And I've got guys on here that have basically said they don't care, and will continue to use others property without permission?

Well guess what I just set time aside to do on Sunday?

Yep, it's getting formally posted. I'm done listening to others tell me that they can just walk on through as if they own it.

Every tree line, every fence, they'll all have nice bright yellow signs by the end of Sunday. And no more permission unless I know you personally. I'm done.

For those that actually respect others' properties, you know who you can thank.

Yeah, and if you let people generally use your property if they ask anyways then it is no big deal. Now people KNOW that it is posted and they should ask permission so it makes sense that you're posting it. People will still abuse the rights and trespass unfortunately because, well, people just aren't that considerate.

 

[PennKev]

ColdBore wrote:
Okay, cool.

So there's a law that says I must allow others to use my land if it's not posted? And people want to throw it in my face?

Only because you refuse to understand/accept the actual law and would rather double down on your original claims.

And that I'll have enforceable rights if it is posted?

Again, no one ever denied your rights as a landowner.

And I've got guys on here that have basically said they don't care, and will continue to use others property without permission?

No one ever said that either. No one has advocated trespass on posted land. It is up to the land owner to convey their wishes via signage or marking, and it up to outsiders to obey that signage. The law does not stipulate that sportsmen should assume access is prohibited otherwise. Quite the contrary.

 

[ColdBore]

jifigz wrote:

Yeah, and if you let people generally use your property if they ask anyways then it is no big deal. Now people KNOW that it is posted and they should ask permission so it makes sense that you're posting it.

The part that you seemed to miss was that I used to allow access to practically anybody that had the courtesy to ask.

Now, if you're not a personal friend, with an established relationship outside of just hunting on my land, I'll be saying "Sorry, but no". Those that only showed up at hunting season now have one less place to hunt. Any that show up tomorrow for the opener will politely be told that it's their last day here.

I resisted for years, and cringed a bit inside every time that I saw another property being posted, but now I get it.

 

[ColdBore]

PennKev wrote:

It is up to the land owner to convey their wishes via signage or marking, ...

Done.

(Or will be by the end of the weekend)