New Trespassing Law

[jifigz]

ColdBore wrote:

jifigz wrote:

Yeah, and if you let people generally use your property if they ask anyways then it is no big deal. Now people KNOW that it is posted and they should ask permission so it makes sense that you're posting it.

The part that you seemed to miss was that I used to allow access to practically anybody that had the courtesy to ask.

Now, if you're not a personal friend, with an established relationship outside of just hunting on my land, I'll be saying "Sorry, but no". Those that only showed up at hunting season now have one less place to hunt. Any that show up tomorrow for the opener will politely be told that it's their last day here.

I resisted for years, and cringed a bit inside every time that I saw another property being posted, but now I get it.

I did miss that part..but it is your land so you can do whatever you want with it.

My neighbor never posted his land and always allowed people to use it because he felt that with those rights people actually respected the land more. He felt that if it were restricted and people denied access they actually trespassed more/did stupid things out of spite, almost. Our land isn't posted and we have no problems. 99% of people still ask to do things and use our property.

Obviously your situation may be different and my neighbor's philosophy may be crazy, but hey whatever. In the end it all boils down to what the landowners wants/allows.

 

[Swattie87]

Happy we could help ya figure it out Cold.

 

[afishinado]

Coldbore,

I'm not sure where your animosity and anger comes from since PA laws and practices for land access have been the same for a hundred or more years.

As jifigz stated above, your land is your land. If you want to, post it and allow access only to people you have granted permission to access, that's fine.

I do resent your inference that anyone not expressly seeking permission to park and fish along a public road which parallels an unposted stream is a deadbeat or even a criminal.

Have you never driven along Spring Creek Road or along Fishing Creek at the Narrows, both run through private property. Tell me you have never pulled off the road and fish along there if it is not posted. The same holds true for a thousand other streams in PA.

Adopting your way thinking would destroy the vast majority of fishing as well as hunting and hiking in our state.

IMO, the biggest threat to hunting and fishing and one big reason why participation is down, is because of loss of access. I for one would like the PFBC to spend more on acquiring access to streams, rivers and lakes for fishing than spending so much on stocking fish. Every year there are more and more places I used to fish that were open areas, which are now housing developments or are now posted.

 

[tomgamber]

jifigz wrote:
Coldbore,

Nobody is buying public land and turning it private. However, when somebody writes the check, and pays the taxes, they make the rules.

I didn't say that anyone was buying public land and posting it. I did say, however, that we need MORE public land and less landowners that treat their private property like some top secret military defense base. We do not post our 100+ acres and our neighbor doest not post his 220 acres. I am well aware that the person paying the taxes makes the rules.

Around my part of the state I can't remember the last time someone denied me access to fishing on their property when I asked. Hunting may be a totally different story and for obvious reasons.

Timber and mining companies who have had a long standing policy of allowing public hunting, fishing and other types of outdoor recreation on their private land because they bought these lands from the federal government and this was part of the agreement.

Many of these companies, now in need of capital or going out of business aren't selling these lands back to public interests but to investors, bankers and developers who now posting and gating once public accessed private forest land. We're talking millions of acres.

I understand homesteads fall under a whole other argument but its a symptom of the bigger problem.

Here is an interesting quote from one of the articles I recently read on this subject, "In the last decade, private land in the United States has become increasingly concentrated in the hands of a few. Today, just 100 families own about 42 million acres across the country, a 65,000-square-mile expanse, according to the Land Report, a magazine that tracks large purchases. Researchers at the magazine have found that the amount of land owned by those 100 families has jumped 50 percent since 2007."

 

[ryansheehan]

ColdBore wrote:
Okay, cool.

So there's a law that says I must allow others to use my land if it's not posted? And people want to throw it in my face?

And that I'll have enforceable rights if it is posted?

And I've got guys on here that have basically said they don't care, and will continue to use others property without permission?

Well guess what I just set time aside to do on Sunday?

Yep, it's getting formally posted. I'm done listening to others tell me that they can just walk on through as if they own it.

Every tree line, every fence, they'll all have nice bright yellow signs by the end of Sunday. And no more permission unless I know you personally. I'm done.

For those that actually respect others' properties, you know who you can thank.

If your plan is to make people seek permission then yes post the land. If you are ok with people not needing permission, don't post it. PA law seems pretty simple to me. You not understanding the law will cause confusion, nothing good can come from that.

 

[ryansheehan]

ColdBore wrote:

jifigz wrote:

Yeah, and if you let people generally use your property if they ask anyways then it is no big deal. Now people KNOW that it is posted and they should ask permission so it makes sense that you're posting it.

The part that you seemed to miss was that I used to allow access to practically anybody that had the courtesy to ask.

Now, if you're not a personal friend, with an established relationship outside of just hunting on my land, I'll be saying "Sorry, but no". Those that only showed up at hunting season now have one less place to hunt. Any that show up tomorrow for the opener will politely be told that it's their last day here.

I resisted for years, and cringed a bit inside every time that I saw another property being posted, but now I get it.

You can post your land and STILL allow anyone who asks to access it. From your previous posts this is your goal, so what's the problem? This is the legal way to get that done.

 

[ColdBore]

afishinado wrote:

I'm not sure where your animosity and anger comes from since PA laws and practices for land access have been the same for a hundred or more years.

Laws yes, but practices no.

People used to have common courtesy, and ask first. Now we have people openly saying if it's not posted, I'm walking through without even attempting to gain permission first. If they can't have the courtesy to ask, I've lost my courtesy to allow access. Yes, I do get angered at the ever-increasing entitlement mentality.

afishinado wrote:

Adopting your way thinking would destroy the vast majority of fishing as well as hunting and hiking in our state.

IMO, the biggest threat to hunting and fishing and one big reason why participation is down, is because of loss of access. .... Every year there are more and more places I used to fish that were open areas, which are now housing developments or are now posted.

Unfortunately we can't do much about housing developments, but a review of this thread night help you understand why more and more places are being posted. When the vast majority of hunting and fishing is lost, some guys will need to take a deep look inside themselves to find the reason why, but they won't and will continue to believe they've been somehow robbed of their right to use others' property without the courtesy of asking.

afishinado wrote:

I for one would like the PFBC to spend more on acquiring access to streams, rivers and lakes for fishing than spending so much on stocking fish.

On that I'd agree. But the majority of fishermen are a few-days-a-year, catch-and-kill-my-limit, kind of guys. Reduce stocking and they'll quit fishing. They quit fishing and the PAFB loses license sales, so it's never going to happen.

 

[ColdBore]

ryansheehan wrote:

You not understanding the law will cause confusion, nothing good can come from that.

I understand the law just fine.

It says that once those signs go up, STAY OUT. By law.

 

[ColdBore]

ryansheehan wrote:

You can post your land and STILL allow anyone who asks to access it. From your previous posts this is your goal, so what's the problem? This is the legal way to get that done.

Yep, I can. But I won't.

A few attitudes displayed here have convinced me that it is much easier to just post it and say no. If you are not a friend and familiar face, it becomes very easy to determine who is allowed to be there and who isn't. I no longer need to wonder if that person is amongst the many that I said "Sure, go ahead, thanks for asking first".

Rather than displaying and practicing common courtesy, everybody wants to quote law; now it will be on MY side once they walk past those signs.

 

[Swattie87]

ColdBore wrote:

A few attitudes displayed here have convinced me that it is much easier to just post it and say no. If you are not a friend and familiar face, it becomes very easy to determine who is allowed to be there and who isn't. I no longer need to wonder if that person is amongst the many that I said "Sure, go ahead, thanks for asking first".

Rather than displaying and practicing common courtesy, everybody wants to quote law; now it will be on MY side once they walk past those signs.

Before responding, reread my earlier post where I agreed that anglers/hunters/whatever SHOULD ask permission to access private, unposted land...Why?...It's the nice, polite thing to do. Period.

That being said, legally, it's in no way shape or form required. So, you're right...It is easier to just post it and say no. Possibly why the law is written the way it is? For unposted land, the burden is on you (the landowner) to remember who specifically you've said "no" to, since the law is clear the public has implied permission to be there, unless you've told them no. You don't need to remember anymore once it's posted. The law is now on your side, assuming you wish to control access through permission...It flips, no one can be there UNLESS you've given them permission.

In all sincerity, posting seems like the best outcome for your land, and most accurately reflects your wishes for it. If there's someone you want to allow to be there, you still can. They ask, you say yes and thanks for asking. Simple.

If it's not, or they haven't asked you, you don't have to worry about it now...Call law enforcement and let them deal with it.

FWIW - None of us think you're a jerk, or anything like that, for posting your land. It does seem like your true intentions are to monitor it as if it is posted though. That's cool. You own it, you paid for it, you pay the taxes on it. Do what you like with it, but put the law on your side if it's your intent to require permission to be there. If I owned land along a stream, I'd post it. I'd grant access to those who asked, but I'd want it posted from a legal perspective in the event I chose to take action against someone who I decided I did not want there for some reason.

As others have mentioned, we should all be in support of publicly acquired lands for sporting recreation, as it eliminates any of this discussion. We are all welcome to use the land, and if anyone disrespects it, it's clear who owns it and what the consequences are.

 

[ryansheehan]

ColdBore wrote:

ryansheehan wrote:

You can post your land and STILL allow anyone who asks to access it. From your previous posts this is your goal, so what's the problem? This is the legal way to get that done.

Yep, I can. But I won't.

Perfect, it's your land do with it as you wish. Based on your posts that's definitely the right call with your intentions.

 

[afishinado]

My own way of accessing private land is if there is a house nearby or any way to determine ownership, I will seek out the landowner and ask permission to enter their land.

Like I stated in my earlier posts, I own > 100 acres of land in the mountains and do not post it. It's forest land on the top of the mountain. Unless someone knew me and knew I owned the land, I realize it would be nearly impossible to find the owner to ask permission. I let hunters and hikers access the land.

Jifigz stated he and his family own many acres of land along the Juniata River. I've been there (with permission ) it's beautiful and none of it is posted. His family goes by the same philosophy and it works for them.

As Ryan and Swattie wrote above, you are going about things in the right way now. Post your land and give permission to some. No need to get all worked up about folks that are just following the law, like we all do when accessing private land at one time or another.

 

[ColdBore]

Swattie87 wrote:

It does seem like your true intentions are to monitor it as if it is posted though.

Not to prolong this discussion, but that's not entirely accurate. I just expect some common courtesy, which seems to be disappearing at a rapid rate in today's world.

I prefer to not have to get wrapped up in "legal", and to work on a gentleman's handshake and a man's word. I lease a field to another local farmer, for farming (not hunting) purposes. We did it on a handshake, though it involves thousands of dollars a year. You won't find a better partnership, from either side.

I always preferred to treat hunting the same way, but if it needs to become a legal issue now, with formal Posted signs going up, then I guess that's where we're at now.

 

[Swattie87]

ColdBore wrote:

Not to prolong this discussion, but that's not entirely accurate. I just expect some common courtesy, which seems to be disappearing at a rapid rate in today's world.

And those attempting to access your land legally can now rely on the common courtesy to know your intentions...That you'd like those who wish to access your land to ask you first. Not unreasonable at all. And those who see your signs will know that now, and hopefully ask. Or go home. Or be cited by law enforcement if they don't ask you, and you choose to go that route. Either way, you've clearly stated to the public what your desires for your land are..."ask me first"...which is courteous of you, given how the law works in PA.

Understanding this isn't a perfect world, and that you can't rely on everyone to ask, and law abiding hunters and anglers can't rely on every landowner to clearly state their intentions for their land, everybody's a winner at the end of the day here in your case.

If you choose to knee-jerk react, and revoke access to everyone you've previously granted it to in response to this thread, that's on you. They didn't do anything wrong, and they did what you wished up front. No harm there. Posting will only help you in the scenario where folks don't ask you first, which you clearly want them to.

 

[ryansheehan]

ColdBore wrote:

Swattie87 wrote:

It does seem like your true intentions are to monitor it as if it is posted though.

Not to prolong this discussion, but that's not entirely accurate. I just expect some common courtesy, which seems to be disappearing at a rapid rate in today's world.

I prefer to not have to get wrapped up in "legal", and to work on a gentleman's handshake and a man's word. I lease a field to another local farmer, for farming (not hunting) purposes. We did it on a handshake, though it involves thousands of dollars a year. You won't find a better partnership, from either side.

I always preferred to treat hunting the same way, but if it needs to become a legal issue now, with formal Posted signs going up, then I guess that's where we're at now.

I'm guessing there are hunters who don't know about your handshake agreement. What seems like common courtesy to you is not always obvious for others. When dealing with mass amounts of people legal is the only thing that matters.

 

[ColdBore]

ColdBore wrote:
I just expect some common courtesy, which seems to be disappearing at a rapid rate in today's world.

ryansheehan wrote:

What seems like common courtesy to you is not always obvious for others.

Common courtesy....

Not always obvious.....

You about summed it up right there.

It sure *used* to be obvious, but today's population, and what they consider to be acceptable, is changing.

I'll change with it now.

 

[Mwheaps32]

Funny how it took members of a fly fishing forum who don't fish at coldbore property to convince him to formally post his property this weekend.

Rule #1 always seek out the land owner for permission
Rule #2 if you are given permission don't bring anybody else along unless given permission for that specific person
Rule #3 if denied access don't access property

This all seems clear to me purple paint or not

 

[Mike]

When landowners enter the decision process of whether or not to post their land in Pa, another consideration is Act 586 from 1965, The Recreational Use of Land and Water Act. This act encourages landowners to make land and water areas available to the public for recreational purposes by limiting their liability. It is worthwhile reviewing the details along with its amendment or amendments. It is easily found with a search engine. There is also a short but interesting presentation on the topic on the PFBC web site.

Having had brief to lengthy discussions with probably hundreds of landowners over the years, primarily on stocked trout streams, but sometimes on unstocked wild trout streams, the primary cause of posting on previously open private property in reaction to angler behavior was littering. A common one in farm country where littering wasn’t the cause was anglers carelessly leaving gates open, putting valuable farm animals at risk.

 

[troutbert]

The reason many landowners have their land posted isn't littering, or blocking of lanes, or other rude behavior.

Many landowners never intended to have the land open to the public from the time they bought the land. I'm not blaming them for that.

I'm just pointing it out because it's true and is rarely mentioned in these discussions. And you need to know that to keep your thinking and discussing of the topic realistic.

And that information points out the great importance of public lands.

 

[Bamboozle]

troutbert wrote:
The reason many landowners have their land posted isn't littering, or blocking of lanes, or other rude behavior.

Many landowners never intended to have the land open to the public from the time they bought the land. I'm not blaming them for that.

I'm just pointing it out because it's true and is rarely mentioned in these discussions. And you need to know that to keep your thinking and discussing of the topic realistic.

And that information points out the great importance of public lands.

So these people were lying:

Mike wrote:
Having had brief to lengthy discussions with probably hundreds of landowners over the years, primarily on stocked trout streams, but sometimes on unstocked wild trout streams, the primary cause of posting on previously open private property in reaction to angler behavior was littering. A common one in farm country where littering wasn’t the cause was anglers carelessly leaving gates open, putting valuable farm animals at risk.