New Trespassing Law

[salvelinus]

We've become a litigious society. For railroad, power company, etc. lands, perhaps it was because of liability. And this probably extends to private landowners. Someone gets hurt on someone else's land, and immediately sues the landowner.

 

[Jessed]

^ I agree I also know a few land owners who invite people to come fish on their land but have posted signs up just in case someone were to sue

 

[ryansheehan]

ColdBore wrote:

moon1284 wrote:

Or you could purchase land, not post it, and benefit others as well as yourself.

And there it is, again.

Yeah but this is what Moon actually did!!!!! He purchased prime land on the Delaware River and tore down the posted signs! At some point you might figure out that others have a different point view from you. Not everyone is looking for someone to walk up and say can I access your land.

 

[misanthropist]

This thread is hilarious..... PA land laws are simple to understand. The law is objective. Subjectivity is meaningless. I enjoy this site, but man does it beat dead horses like nothing I have ever seen before.

 

[ColdBore]

ryansheehan wrote:

Yeah but this is what Moon actually did!!!!! He purchased prime land on the Delaware River and tore down the posted signs!

In that case, good for him, and I apologize.

I actually did the same though. I previously owned acreage on a very fishable river, with half a mile of water frontage. It was posted when I bought it, but was enrolled in the Hunter Access Program with the Game Commission after I bought it. It was still that way on the day I sold it, even though locals thought that riding four wheelers through my field to save themselves some walking was okay.

The place I live now was posted heavily when I bought it. The signs came down after I bought it.

But attitudes finally changed enough to make me reconsider that.

ryansheehan wrote:

At some point you might figure out that others have a different point view from you. Not everyone is looking for someone to walk up and say can I access your land.

And at some point, people might figure out that landowners are getting tired of the entitled viewpoint of those that think that everything should be theirs to use as they please. Courtesy extends in both directions.

Besides being posted, more and more is being leased, and sportsmen are being priced out of the game. I asked for nothing, zero, for using my land, other than a very simple "Would it be okay....?". But that seems to be unacceptable to some here.

 

[ColdBore]

larkmark wrote:

This happened in most part because of a change in attitudes by landowners. Some will say it is because of littering or driving on fields or poaching and that may be true to an extent. But in my experience it was mostly about as I said, a change in attitude which I don't think is related to bad actions necessarily. Some may call it selfishness or greed or the me generation or people just getting very concerned about owning and having exclusive and private property or maybe mistrust and fearful ideas about others. When the farms around here went up for sale the new people posted.Some were big corporate type outfits and some were more urban types who came from out of our area. I will not judge it but it is a different world view. It is not the neighborly old ways that I grew up with. Those good old days are gone.

Believe it or not, I actually agree with a lot of what you wrote, to a point.

Yes, new landowners tend to be quicker to post than existing landowners. Some buy land for the exclusive purpose of herd management or hunting just themselves. Others are "city folk" who are moving to the country but can't leave their city ways behind (for anybody wondering, I have never lived in a city, or even a big town).

And yes, views are changing, and society in general is changing, and very little of it seems to be for the better. Every day, you read or watch news stories about people acting like a fool on airplanes, in restaurants, on the road, and any number of different places, where common courtesy (yes, there it is again), has seemed to just disappear over the last couple decades. Population increases causing more crowding, the me attitude, people losing all social skills because everything is text and Facebook (some people act shocked, and get the deer in the headlights look when you actually open your mouth and speak to them, as they have totally forgotten how to interact with another living being), whatever.

Yes, those days are gone, unfortunately.

More and more land gets posted every year, while very little gets unposted. Think about what you could've done differently to change that.

Some here criticize me for my attitude and for finally posting. My final response is that you (generically speaking) could've done something that takes only a few minutes, and costs you absolutely nothing, in exchange for the opportunity to use, for free, something that cost somebody else hundreds of thousands of dollars. I'm not just talking about me, I'm talking in broad terms about many landowners. That seems to be a pretty lopsided equation, but apparently it's too much for some, and I'm the bad guy.

 

[larkmark]

coldbore- I don't think anyone said you were wrong to post. I actually think that considering all you have said that for you it makes the most sense. Perhaps writing on the signs BY PERMISSION ONLY would be another possibility for you. I totally support your choice. Clarity is very important. As with all these things it is indeed a two way street. We have had few problems but others have had problems so each situation is different. I actually think the PA law has it right because it requires landowners to decide how they want their land used or not and then offers freedom to the public to use places that have no signs.

Funny thing happened yesterday. We have an organization here that has an area that has been posted for over a year even though when I talked to them they told me it is open to hunt. They just forgot to take signs down.

 

[PALongbow]

You know I lost a lot of hunting and fishing land over the years to new landowners that choose to post their property for one reason or another. I didn't sit around and cry about it or proclaimed myself as entitled ....I went and purchased land and control it the way I see fit. I have no obligation or desire to open my land up to the public because I worked hard to purchase it and I use it. People have been total jerks when ask to leave my property so that deepens my feelings even more about my land being posted and how trespassers will be either warned or just outright arrested. I also don't agree with the way people fish or hunt with some of their methods and mindset so its posted and you may or may not be invited as a quest. It's all pretty simple....

Ron

 

[jifigz]

Where is all of this talk about people "being entitled" coming from. Remember the law, once again, if it isn't posted it is assumed open to hunting and fishing. I don't see how that is "entitlement" but rather following the laws on the books here in the Commonwealth.

 

[Swattie87]

ColdBore wrote:
And at some point, people might figure out that landowners are getting tired of the entitled viewpoint of those that think that everything should be theirs to use as they please. Courtesy extends in both directions.

Besides being posted, more and more is being leased, and sportsmen are being priced out of the game. I asked for nothing, zero, for using my land, other than a very simple "Would it be okay....?". But that seems to be unacceptable to some here.

You hit it well here Cold. You certainly have your viewpoint, which isn't unacceptable to anyone who's been participating in this thread. In fact, it's very acceptable, and everyone supports you with having that personal viewpoint.

Understanding that others are free to have their own viewpoints, and that the law on the subject is a relative constant (at least as it is written now), unless you inform folks of your viewpoint (either verbally, or by posting, or other written notification) how can you assume the rest of the world knows your viewpoint for your land, and how to best respect it?

In regard to unposted land, a perfectly viable counterviewpoint of a sportsman who understands the law in PA may be to say..."If the landowner wanted to be bothered by me asking for their permission, they'd post it. I assume they don't want me coming to knock on their door or calling them and bothering them and/or their family just to fish the stream on their property or hunt on it. If they did, they'd post it." There's nothing entitled at all about that...It's the sportsmen trying to do what they think is right and polite, and what the landowner wants, from their viewpoint. Yeah, they're making an assumption, but that's based on the land not being posted.

^Not saying that's how I'd handle it, or that any certain viewpoint is right, it's just a different viewpoint.

In general, this discussion relating to your property has been centered around how best for you to communicate your personal viewpoint (you'd like to be asked for permission) to others, and them to then best respect it in regard to your land. Given the options available, I agree with your decision, and support you in doing it...Posting your property is the most reasonable and efficient way to do this.

Edit: By not posting, but wanting to be asked for permission, you're the one making the assumption that everyone else has the same viewpoint as you, and will respect and abide by that viewpoint. Even though that's not the law, and everyone's free to have their own viewpoint. By posting, you're legally requiring that everyone have that same viewpoint as you...Hence why it makes sense in your situation.

 

[jifigz]

The one true asset of posting land is that people then KNOW they are crossing into private property and, if the signs are signed, who owns it. Otherwise it would and could be quite easy for an individual to cross from public ground to private without ever knowing the difference.

 

[SmoothOperator]

trout48 wrote:
I pay the taxes and maintain my property why is it that people think they can trespass. My grandchildren were in there go kart riding in one of my fields and somebody in a tree stand tells them to get off of the property. They came back and told me well I snuck up behind him with a pistol in my hand you should have seen the look on his face when I asked him what he was doing. People buying 4 wheelers but they don't have property to ride on buy your own land.

Dude, Just because you own the land, and some sh*thead illegally chases your family away .....DOES NOT entitle you to sneak up on somebody (with an assumed) loaded pistol in your hand...... Your taking a bad situation and multiplying it by 1000%....... If I'm trespassing on your land it would be unintentional, but come stalking me with a gun in your hand......well Houston. We have a problem....... And it ain't going to end with " happily ever after"........ Get over it dude ......You own property and your mentally is " Nobody touch it , ITS MINE !!!!!!!!!

 

[bingsbaits]

It gives him every right to confront someone who has threatened his family and is trespassing.. Only a fool would confront an armed man unarmed...

 

[laurelrun]

Since I bought and posted my property 14 years ago, I’ve encountered rifle hunters wearing no orange hiding in the woods behind a tree, a bow hunter who I told to leave relocating to a tree on a different part of my property, had game cameras stolen from well inside my property, found dead deer out of season, had a run in with the Hash House Harriers running club, a naked prowler on my front porch, a drunk driver drive down my lane, people parking and making out even leaving used prophylactics behind, a homeless guy sleeping in the woods, and a family hiking at dusk down the streambed, and unauthorized surveying and construction work.

Posted signs prevented none of this. But it did give me standing when I called the cops. Even so, only one time did the cops press charges. That was the naked guy in case you were wondering.

There are many people who do not respect private property. Whether the law is on your side or not, be respectful. And keep in mind that when you encounter a property owner, he has most likely dealt with some weird stuff that may make him agitated.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

If i see signs i ask or keep driving.

If i dont, i fish like many of you.

Respect goes two ways though. Only once in my life did i have a problem with a landowner.

We accessed a large parcel of woods that was left unposted between two other posted properties. We fished and got approached by the landowner, at the time i had no idea he was the landowner, this is how the conversation went. Keep in mind i was like 18 or 19 with a ton of balls and little brains.

How is the fishing?

Got a few its a beautiful day. How are you?

Im fine, you guys know this is posted property?

No, I was not aware. We drove down the road looking for access and this area didnt have signs.

Well it is.

Ok, then i apologize and we will leave, I completely understand.

Do ya? F***** do ya!

Excuse me?

You heard me. F**** do ya?!


At this point now i was pissed. I was nothing but cordial with this stranger and while he owns the land and that does require certain
respect there was no reason for this guy to be a dbag.

The long and short of it i told him if he talked to me like that one more time he was going for a swim. He kind of laughed And told me to f off, until i started coming for him. Im not a big guy but neither was he and you can certainly see my fire once you put me over. As he was running yelling he was calling the cops, i was yelling back make sure you buy some posted signs.


I have probably gained more access to private property than most on this site by conversation with landowners. Ive even had some turn me down just to grant access years later. Its not hard but certainly respect goes two ways. I understand like in the post above that some of these landowners ave dealt with a lot. Keep in mind, the person you confront on your land may be dealing with a lot too.

Guess im trying to say, Just because someone owns land doesn't mean you have the right to access it. Signs or not. I think no signs gives you the leeway to try on ypur own but once confronted, leave smiling. On the flip side, because you own land you might have the right to kick people out but at least be nice if the person is being nice back, because that landownership wont exonerate you from sporting fat lips.

 

[SmoothOperator]

First off nobody " threatened " his family..... Second .....you don't " sneak up" to confront someone brandishing a side arm......If someone is TRESPASSING on the property, approach them civilly.....Not like a crazed maniac...... As far as confronting an armed man unarmed,not everyone advertises that they're carrying...... I'm no legal expert but I don't think very many people are thrown in jail for trespassing by inadvertently wondering on to someone's property......

bingsbaits wrote:
It gives him every right to confront someone who has threatened his family and is trespassing.. Only a fool would confront an armed man unarmed...

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

I was just thinking.

I bet WV or TX anglers always ask permission. Sign or not.
:lol:

 

[jifigz]

bingsbaits wrote:
It gives him every right to confront someone who has threatened his family and is trespassing.. Only a fool would confront an armed man unarmed...

Sounds a little paranoid to me. I don't expect most people carrying firearms and appearing to be hunting to be actively ready to pull them out and just start blazing people down.

 

[tomgamber]

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
I was just thinking.

I bet WV or TX anglers always ask permission. Sign or not.
:lol:

Count Idaho in that as well. As a matter of fact Idaho Dept. of Fish and Game spend a lot of money communicating this message. In return, there is a great deal of landowner cooperation. The other campaign is "Know before you go.". Encouraging sportsman to be aware and educated as who's land, whether public or private, the intend to access. It's good common sense.

 

[Millsertime]

PALongbow wrote:
You know I lost a lot of hunting and fishing land over the years to new landowners that choose to post their property for one reason or another. I didn't sit around and cry about it or proclaimed myself as entitled ....I went and purchased land and control it the way I see fit. .

Ron

+1 ^


I did the exact same. You want it.....Go get it yourself! If you can't afford it...stop complaining!