Is Fly Fishing Humane?

[TimMurphy]

Dear Rabbi,

I'll be honest and admit that C&R fishing does pose sort of an ethical dilemma to me, but it's not something that I'm going to lose any sleep over.

Playing around with any wild creature for personal amusement really does seem sort of barbaric, but in the overall scheme of living a decent and moral life it's a contradiction that I am comfortable with.

You started a good discussion BTW, it's one of the better ones that we have had in a while, Mazeltov!

Regards,
Tim Murphy

 

[troutbert]

OhioOutdoorsman wrote:

Not all things are subject to rational explanations. And that includes why people fish, when they don't need the food? Why are people mesmerized by the flames of campfire or candle? Why do people stare at the moon, or gaze out at the sea?

While you certainly don't need to be able to expain why you enjoy something to enjoy it, I don't find "If it feels good, do it" to be any sort of ethical justification. Perhaps if I were a devout hedonist.....

Sportsman are differentiated from other people who use animals merely for their pleasure (Mr. Vick, for example) by having a reasoned explanation for why what they do is ethical that society generally accepts. Unless you do this, the fact that you can continue to C and R flyfish while Mr. Vick goes to jail if merely a matter of cutural norms rather than morals or ethics.

Fish have the same types of nerves, spinal cords, and neurotransmitters we do any definitely demonstatrate the same fight or flight response we do. Whether they have any sort of counsiousness to experience what we would call pain is something we will never know.....here we have to rely on our personal or religious beliefs.

I don't think of fishing as being hedonistic. Do people climb mountains for hedonistic reasons? Are people attracted strongly to the sea for hedonistic reasons? Is the fascination with the moon and stars hedonistic? Are people mesmerized by the flames of candles and fireplaces for hedonistic reasons? Do people love Bach for hedonistic reasons?

No, people love these things for deep, mysterious, and inexplicable reasons.

Same thing with going out into the mountains and walking way up along a stream, and casting the fly onto the sparkling waters.

It's a sort of walking meditation, with stream, woods, mayflies and fish, instead of sitting on a cushion. That may all sound mysti-poo to some people, but that's the way I see it.

And of course it's not a full or complete explanation, it's just poking around in the general direction of an explanation, because a full description would be as elusive as describing the "meaning" of Bach's music.

 

[OhioOutdoorsman]

Troutbert, we are discussing different things.

All I am saying is that ENJOYMENT does not equal MORAL JUSTISTIFICATION. Micheal Vick enjoyed dog fighting...his enjoyment of it does not make it right.

The only way enjoyment equals moral justification is if you hold your personal enjoyment as the guiding priciple for your ethical decision making. This would be a hedonistic philosophy.

All I'm saying is that when someone asks you why you are right to fish and why Micheal Vick is wrong to dogfight, you're better off having an answer that is something besides "it feels good".

Disclaimer: I think its fine to fish. Fish to eat, release to conserve.

 

[Chaz]

While some may consider any hook and bullet activity as inhumane, I don't and I don't care if anyone thinks it is inhumane. Fly-fishing is the most humane way to fish though since it causes the lease amount of harm to the fish as long as they are released. I don't believe it is inhumane to harvest trout, though I don't.

 

[troutbert]

Flyfishing and dogfighting have about as much in common as listening to death metal has in common with listening to Beethoven's Ode to Joy. IMHO

 

[Padraic]

troutbert wrote:
Flyfishing and dogfighting have about as much in common as listening to death metal has in common with listening to Beethoven's Ode to Joy. IMHO

Or as Robert Traver would say...
"Flyfishing is, to all other forms of angling, what high seduction is to rape"

 

[pete41]

I sincerely doubt if we could make a case for either fishing or hunting being humane as neither are.As to being able to justify why we enjoy these activities to those that don't participate or are close to someone who does,it won't help the cause any to try and claim the high ground.
Those of us who fish have mixed emotions about hunting and types of fishing other than ones we favor so why should we expect ``outsiders'' to understand.
I enjoy jumping in my kayak and going after reds and snook with spinning gear as much as fly fishing.I also practice C&R for the same reason as do most of the serious fishermen around here-for the betterment of our sport.
Can I explain why I have been an avid fisherman from my pre-school days-no.
Have I ever felt the least bit guilty for my passion-no.
Does that make me cruel and sadistic- depends on who is doing the judging I guess.

 

[RabbiEE]

TimMurphy wrote:
Dear Rabbi,

I'll be honest and admit that C&R fishing does pose sort of an ethical dilemma to me, but it's not something that I'm going to lose any sleep over.

Playing around with any wild creature for personal amusement really does seem sort of barbaric, but in the overall scheme of living a decent and moral life it's a contradiction that I am comfortable with.

You started a good discussion BTW, it's one of the better ones that we have had in a while, Mazeltov!

Regards,
Tim Murphy

Hi Tim.

I agree with your comment and feel the same way. I think that C&R is the way to go but even then I sometimes feel a bit bad for the fish. On the other hand, I love fly fishing and will not stop anytime soon.

I really enjoyed this discussion and was amazed at how it grew and developed.

Rabbi

 

[OhioOutdoorsman]

At risk of a rehash of the "Little J No More" thread, I'll say my peace again.

Fishing and hunting are humane if they benefit humans by providing them with food. Myself and several others feel that why C and R fishing just "feels" right it is very difficult to justify logically to ourselves, let alone non-fisherman.

By releasing fish, you definitely increase the chances that a C and R fisherman will have a better fishing experience in the future. However, with a few exceptions, practicing C and R does little to affect the sustainability of a fishery.

When I started fly fishing, I started practicing C and R fishing almost exclusively because it was what everyone else did and I believed it was the key to protecting our fish. But as I started listen to others and read more I have come to the opinion that overharvest and has been replaced by larger watershed issues that make the effects of harvest seem minor. Having C and R be the banner for our conservation efforts is using yesterday's solution for today's problems in a lot of ways. All I am saying, is don't let your conservation efforts end there.

All forms of sport-fishing produce an appreciation and value for our natural world and that is enough justification for me at the end of the day, whether you are honoring a fish by releasing it or by eating it. I still feel that C and R fishing is more difficult to defend ethically than catching and eating, but that is based on my own personal beliefs, and you should find your own reasons for what you do.

Bill

 

[jaybo41]

What an enjoyable read from the first post to the last before mine. It's hard to say anything that's not been mentioned at this point and hopefully my post will continue to do this topic justice.

I believe that fly fishing is humane as long as I respect the fish and the surroundings. Fly fishing to me is all about being out in the woods taking in the beautiful landscape and the utmost appreciation for the fish.

I am C&R almost exclusively but have no problem with taking a fish or two for a meal. Again though as long as the sacrifice of the food is appreciated and respected, much like the Native Americans. They respected the land and appreciated the resources to the fullest. I also pinch the barbs or buy barbless hooks to tie when available to minimize fish mortality. I wet my hands before touching the fish then pause ever so slighty to admire the colors and the beauty of the fish. Then release it to catch another day. If the fish is going to die, then I'll keep it so that it's death is not in vain.

Beyond that, fly fishing is a hobby that allows me to think full circle on life. Tying or buying flys to match the natural food chain, persuing the fish and then appreciating them before releasing them. Also, time on the tying bench is extremely theraputic for me. As I create the flys, I imagine being on a stream, casting at some trout and reeling them in. It makes us more concious about the environment, it makes us appreciate the resources we have and God's beauty.

I'm a firm believer that fly fishing is good for the soul.

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear Rabbi,

It's funny how civil the discourse can be when it's too damn hot to argue isn't it? :-D

Regards,
Tim Murphy

 

[RabbiEE]

TimMurphy wrote:
Dear Rabbi,

It's funny how civil the discourse can be when it's too damn hot to argue isn't it? :-D

Regards,
Tim Murphy

I always support civil debate. Passion for one's views is never a problem. The trick is to always argue the idea and try to keep the ego and competitiveness out of it. Not easy!

 

[MattBoyer]

troutbert wrote:
Flyfishing and dogfighting have about as much in common as listening to death metal has in common with listening to Beethoven's Ode to Joy. IMHO

Flyfishing and dogfighting use pentatonic minor scales? :lol:

Boyer

 

[sundrunk]

"Dog will hunt"

 

[troutbert]

MattBoyer wrote:

troutbert wrote:
Flyfishing and dogfighting have about as much in common as listening to death metal has in common with listening to Beethoven's Ode to Joy. IMHO

Flyfishing and dogfighting use pentatonic minor scales? :lol:

Boyer

Ha ha! On trout, aren't the pentatonic minor scales those little ones located right behind the adipose fin?

All I know for sure is that when I go flyfishing it has nothing in common with dogfighting. I can't speak for others.

 

[buckbarrett]

I also have the same feelings and am glad to hear that so many responses were of the same mind. One response mentioned the Buddist view. I am a converted Buddhist and worry constantly about my passion for flyfishing. I can look at my teachings and rationalize the concept of pain and suffering to fit my pleasures, which also causes my guilt. But, like you, I just cant quit! But, I believe if we can find a way to balance our pleasures with spreading some good into the waters, we will have an answer to your imposing question. And I am also glad to read that you and many others are conscience of our actions. Flyfisherman rule!

 

[FarmerDave]

buckbarrett wrote:
I also have the same feelings and am glad to hear that so many responses were of the same mind. One response mentioned the Buddist view. I am a converted Buddhist and worry constantly about my passion for flyfishing. I can look at my teachings and rationalize the concept of pain and suffering to fit my pleasures, which also causes my guilt. But, like you, I just cant quit! But, I believe if we can find a way to balance our pleasures with spreading some good into the waters, we will have an answer to your imposing question. And I am also glad to read that you and many others are conscience of our actions. Flyfisherman rule!

You got that all wrong. Flyfisherwomen rule! I love those calendars. :lol:

 

[ian_brown]

I like the comparison of fly fishing to puppies playing; it's a harmless activity that taps into some deep instinct.

As for the comparison to dogfighting, I see the difference in the details. I believe that to a man (and one or two women) the posters on this board mash our barbs, avoid fishing for heat stressed fish, and release the vast majority of our catch. The fish we choose to keep, we attempt to kill quickly.

Dogfighting, on the other hand, is calculated to maximize the dogs' pain, and there is no concern for the animals' wellbeing. Flyfishers support the TU and Nature Conservancy, which I believe more than offsets any damage caused by C&R fishing. Dogfighters aren't known for supporting the SPCA.