Is Fly Fishing Humane?

[jayL]

Good discussion.

Dave, as to the point that Wulff alluded to:

When I made that point months ago, I was thinking more along the lines of a dog on a choke chain. They work pretty well... Though I'd never use them on my dachshund.

 

[jayL]

Rabbi,

I just checked out your blog. Good stuff.

One point:

As to your guilt over catching the egg-filled brown trout...

Disclaimer. This is my understanding, and I may be wrong.

Now, on to my point.

They reproduce externally. The eggs are laid and then fertilized by a male. The eggs which you found in that fish were not yet fertilized, and perhaps never would have been. This is all dependent on her ability to find a mate, which may or may not have been probable depending on the water you were fishing. Female trout will almost always have unfertilized eggs certain times of year. You didn't necessarily condemn the futures of little troutlings. Not only that, but I bet it was delicious!


Jay

 

[JackM]

Respect for all living beings means
with a certain sadness
that life must be sacrificed
for life

Like the native americans,
we should hang our carcasses
in the supermarket
as a reminder

plants and animals each
renewable and eternal
pass from form to form
and return

and in our coming and going,
we may meet again.
But it takes time,
it takes time.

-- Anonymous

 

I really wasn't going to get into this discussion, it was all being said already much too well for ME to come in and screw it up.
However, Rabbi, I have to comment you on both your blog, your massive "Smallie/Punk'in Seed/Trout with scales" that appears there, as well as, your excellent post.
I'm sure, there are many in this discussion that are of my age, that remembers when "pointless fishing" became popular, in the mid 1980s!?! 70s? No, 80's, I think........................... anyhoo, this whole thing of "Catch and Release" had just really started tacking off and the arguments flew fast and furious. (I got slugged, and called "An IDIOT!", by a stream side worm dunker, once, when I released a 3 pound Brown in '83!).
Regardless, in that time, "Pointless Fishing" became "THE IN THING" for a thankfully very short period and it consisted of simply "Tying/paying $3.00 for a fly, then breaking off the point of the hook, just at the start of the bend"! Theory being..... "Fly Fishing is ONLY ABOUT the fish hitting your fly, NOT you, landing it, anyway!"
This was embraced by many we now call our "higher ups", such as Lefty, Swisher, Hoffman, etc. I can't remember, WHO is was at this time, even came out with a line of clear plastic tying hooks with the points molded into a "ball" of clear plastic, to facilitate the "strike, but not the hook up".
Everyone has their own gig on this C & R thing and that's what keeps this sport lively for me, actually. I practice strong C & R and also keep..... when streamside and hungry.
"Ethics"?, "Right/Wrong"? "Pain"? We ALL have to judge this for ourselves and I don't think any amount of discussion, can settle it for any of us. PETA has been trying to ban and outlaw fishing for the past 7 years, here, in the Great Northwest.... every time they can find an overweight or out of work actor, who will join their low level intelligence and donate some funding.
Their argument has always been, at least out here, "it's PAINFUL to the fish and the fish have NO choice NO option, to be caught and killed!" I've ran into these poor uneducated people on many waters, where I fish over the years............... they're usually also sucking on a plastic bottle of tap water, they paid $3.00 for. A bottle that takes more oil to produce SIX OF than all the flyfishing gear I'm presently using........................

 

[RabbiEE]

jayL wrote:
Rabbi,

I just checked out your blog. Good stuff.

One point:

As to your guilt over catching the egg-filled brown trout...

Disclaimer. This is my understanding, and I may be wrong.

Now, on to my point.

They reproduce externally. The eggs are laid and then fertilized by a male. The eggs which you found in that fish were not yet fertilized, and perhaps never would have been. This is all dependent on her ability to find a mate, which may or may not have been probable depending on the water you were fishing. Female trout will almost always have unfertilized eggs certain times of year. You didn't necessarily condemn the futures of little troutlings. Not only that, but I bet it was delicious!


Jay

Hi Jay.

Thanks for your response. I did not know that about how the eggs are fertilitzed outside of the fish. And yes, the fish was delicious. Fresh trout with olive oil and salt, the best.

I've really enjoyed reading everyone's responses. Thanks!

Rabbi

 

[OhioOutdoorsman]

This issue is very personal one. I'm glad to see most have thought about this issue. Thinking about and being able to explain why you fish, developing a code of conduct that translates your intentions into results, and following this code and passing it on to others, is what makes a sportsman....regardless of whether you keep fish or not.

 

[jazz]

I go fishing 'cause I love it.......my dad introduced me to it when I was 5 yrs old or so and I've been fishing ever since......62 yrs later and I still enjoy it.....can't explain it......I just love it....my Boxer dog Mollie is a close second!

 

[troutbert]

Not all things are subject to rational explanations. And that includes why people fish, when they don't need the food? Why are people mesmerized by the flames of campfire or candle? Why do people stare at the moon, or gaze out at the sea?

Why do some people collect antique vacum cleaners? (Some people do you know!)

They don't do any of these things for practical, logical reasons. They do them—just because. There doesn't HAVE to be a reason.

I've had people ask why I like fishing so much. I usually say something like PFFFFFTTTT!!!! and roll my eyes and shrug my shoulders.

There's no real answer to such a question. Fishing is elemental, it's mysterious.

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

 

[Woolybugger]

Rabbi,

God put man in charge of the animal world. I'm sure you know this as a Bible guy. The fish are here to give us pleasure and sometimes food....... remember Jesus feeding the multitudes with fish?

Wonderful pleasure for me tonight wading in the Susquehanna with my fly rod. I needed that wonderful experience tonight and God knew that. I didn't hurt the fish I caught. I released all the fish and they swam away fine and healthy.

Fish don't feel any pain like we do. The biggest bass I caught tonight pulled drag and took all my line to the backing! LOL

So, I must say that it is "humane" to catch fish with a fly rod.

What in life could be better than that?

 

[albatross]

Here's a definition:

hu·mane
adj.
1. Characterized by kindness, mercy, or compassion: a humane judge.
2. Marked by an emphasis on humanistic values and concerns: a humane education.



By this definition Fly Fishing is definitely not Humane, unless we want to twist the meaning around to "good for the humans involved". There is no direct benefit for the fish from flyfishing.

 

[FarmerDave]

pete41 wrote:
I fish because I thoroughly enjoy the sport,
I release fish because it benefits me to do so by helping keep the hobby viable and fun and I really don't like fish anyway.
It would be gross hypocrisy to try to claim anything what-so-ever noble about my actions.
To be human is to be so.

I like that response. You got your point across with very few words. And I agree.

 

[FarmerDave]

jayL wrote:
Good discussion.

Dave, as to the point that Wulff alluded to:

When I made that point months ago, I was thinking more along the lines of a dog on a choke chain. They work pretty well... Though I'd never use them on my dachshund.

i am assuming you are talking to me, but i don't know what you are talking about. I don't remember that discussion, and I was only joking around with WM.

 

[OhioOutdoorsman]

Not all things are subject to rational explanations. And that includes why people fish, when they don't need the food? Why are people mesmerized by the flames of campfire or candle? Why do people stare at the moon, or gaze out at the sea?

While you certainly don't need to be able to expain why you enjoy something to enjoy it, I don't find "If it feels good, do it" to be any sort of ethical justification. Perhaps if I were a devout hedonist.....

Sportsman are differentiated from other people who use animals merely for their pleasure (Mr. Vick, for example) by having a reasoned explanation for why what they do is ethical that society generally accepts. Unless you do this, the fact that you can continue to C and R flyfish while Mr. Vick goes to jail if merely a matter of cutural norms rather than morals or ethics.

Fish have the same types of nerves, spinal cords, and neurotransmitters we do any definitely demonstatrate the same fight or flight response we do. Whether they have any sort of counsiousness to experience what we would call pain is something we will never know.....here we have to rely on our personal or religious beliefs.

 

[jayL]

i am assuming you are talking to me, but i don't know what you are talking about. I don't remember that discussion, and I was only joking around with WM.

You know what they say about assuming!

***-u-me

Heh, I kid.

I know you were joking, you always are. I just wanted to make the point I made months ago again, to spite your "cat tail" point... Joke or not, it seemed logical to me so I wanted to explain my reasoning.

 

[mattd]

Rabbie,
This has been one of the most enjoyable topics. All responses were great and it has been a pleasure reading.
"Fly-fishing is a wonderful activity that can lead us to feel close to nature. And it can also be ethically challenging. Our task is to make fly-fishing, and all activities in our lives, as ethical and upright as possible."

Couldn't have said it any better. I once read a quote, I'm not sure who said it, that pretty much summed it up for me.

" Some people fish all their lives and never realize its not the fish that they are after."

Although catching fish is fun. It's not my main objective anymore.
Fly fishing gives me a connection to nature that most activities don't. Even when I hike I don't get the same gratitude. Fly fishing slows me down and lets me take in the surroundings. Ever since I was a child I've been fascinated by running water. I treasure all time I spend on the stream and in nature and I'm sure most feel this way, whether you know it or not.

 

[OhioOutdoorsman]

Also, with creels, the intention is not to use these as suffocation chambers for the fish but instead to keep your meat cool after you have killed and gutted the fish by using evaporation from the wetted creel to draw heat away from the meat. It allows you to fish all day without having the meat spoil.

Many people do use/misuse creels as suffocation chambers, though.

 

Some people fish all their lives and never realize its not the fish that they are after."
Without reaching for my copy, I believe this comment comes from Robert Traver's "Trout Madness".

 

[thedude1534]

Albatross, I'm in agreement with you. While if practiced properly C&R fishing will have minimal effect on fish, it is still stressful for them, and they don't directly benefit from it. So, you must ask the question as what point do you cross the line between a negligable annoyance (to the fish that is) and cruelty?

I practice C&R because I am a conservationist, but I think it is more honorable and humane to kill the fish and eat it. However, when I fish I honestly do not believe that I am causing the fish any real harm. I did feel I was causing them harm before I pinched the barbs on all my hooks, but now that I do, I feel a lot better about my fishing practices.

As much as it is an oxymoron, I believe the C&R fishing that I practice is "acceptable cruelty", and if I thought that I was really causing fish harm, I wouldn't do it. However, I acknowledge the fact that what I'm doing is not beneficial for them, which is why I feel like I owe something back to the fish. I guess this debt to the fish could be payed off by advocating conservation for the environments they live in.......

 

[StudentofTheStream]

I believe the quote flybinder and mattd are referring to might be this:

Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~Henry David Thoreau

This has been a very interesting topic and one that no single person will ever have the correct answer to. While I think ultimately that catch and release in my opinion is more humane than fish mortality, there is a bit of cruelty involved. But at the end of the day, I feel much better having caught and released fish than having kept them even if it was for an appetizing meal. C&R ensures future generations will be able to partake in the same enjoyment that we get to experience today.

I heard a quote that said something like this: "We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors but rather borrow it from our grandchildren." I think with that in mind C&R seems the only thing to do for the sake of our future generations and that is the greater moral concern for me.

 

[OhioOutdoorsman]

I think this:

However, I acknowledge the fact that what I'm doing is not beneficial for them, which is why I feel like I owe something back to the fish. I guess this debt to the fish could be payed off by advocating conservation for the environments they live in.......

is a much truer statement than this:

C&R ensures future generations will be able to partake in the same enjoyment that we get to experience today.