Timber Rattlesnake v. Northern Copperhead

[outsider]

http://www.virginiaherpetologicalsociety.com/venomous-look-a-likes/copperhead-look-a-likes/copperhead.htm

 

[PAgeologist]

Thank you all for correcting me on this one. I would have swore that was a copperhead.

 

[sandfly]

never seen a copperhead up here, down in the southeast lots of them. haven't seen a rattler yet either.
do have a lot of these in the yard at least a dozen or so..

 

[pete41]

First rattle snake I ever saw was on Slate run,second was on the upper rapidan in Va. just yards from some presidents retreat.Sorta symbolic.

 

[FarmerDave]

Mike wrote:
For the most part I roll my eyes when I hear people speak of copperheads and then in the same breath describe habitats, geographical locations, abundances, and behaviors that are extremely unlikely. I have spent a lifetime (yes, a lifetime, as I enjoyed learning about and catching water snakes and milk snakes as a child) trying to educate individuals about these critters, which mostly involved trying to convince so-called outdoorsmen or timid landowners, who seemed to think they were saving the world or their family by killing snakes or having them removed, that the very snakes that they thought were copperheads were northern water snakes or eastern milk snakes. You can't believe how convinced most lay people are that they can properly identify a copperhead, at least the people who have come to me or with whom I have discussed snakes. It is sad, because usually a snake of one kind or another, non-poisonous or poisonous, ends up dead. I have yet to directly hear a copperhead story from anyone other than a biologist, trained naturalist, very educated citizen in all things natural, or someone who was accompanying these individuals, that actually turned out to be a copperhead.

Mike,

A friend of mine here at work moved from the city out into a distant suburb into a small subdivision carved out of some woods. His is scared to death of all snakes and does his best to kill every one he sees. I tried to educate him, but he would have none of that. It's kind of pathetic, really. People like that should stay in the city. but I understand his desire to move his kids to a better school system.

Aint that what condos are for?

I've seen a ton of water snakes in my days, but never a copper head. They just are not in most of the areas I have frequented, but I've heard so many stories of them.

I even had a Cleveland native claim he saw a cottonmouth in a local pond. Sorry, it didn't happen.

I kind of like the milk snakes. The old timers called them house snakes.

 

[k-bob]

this article says copperheads are locally abundant in some parts of PA

http://fishandboat.com/copprhe.htm

 

[FarmerDave]

Most people who would see this snake would think it was a copper head. But it's not. It's a Northern Water Snake.

The markings are pretty much identical to a copperhead on that particular snake, but if you look closely, the colors are reversed.

See how the hour glass on that water snake is the lighter color?

On a copper head, it is the darker color.

I scarfed the picture from the internet, but I've seen many like this.

 

[k-bob]

I have had people assure me that they saw a copperhead on valley creek. fits w mike's comments about missIDed NWS.

 

[FarmerDave]

k-bob wrote:
this article says copperheads are locally abundant in some parts of PA

http://fishandboat.com/copprhe.htm

They probably are especially in southern half and especially SE, but not in most of the parts I have frequented which would be NWPA.

Article said "The limit of the copperhead's range in Pennsylvania for the most part coincides with the southern limit of glacial activity."

That is probably fairly accurate and the exception would be the ANF plateau which was not glaciated. You would be very hard pressed to find one there, but I guess that falls under "for the most part."

You won't find them in NWPA, north of the Clarion River. No idea why that is.

They likely had them where I lived in North Carolina, but I never did any true wilderness hiking in the brief time I lived there.

 

[RLeep2]

Dave Sez: "They likely had them where I lived in North Carolina, but I never did any true wilderness hiking in the brief time I lived there..."

That's because in NC, the vast majority of Copperheads (and there are a pile of them) are either in the rough along golf courses or sitting on the edge of municipal or township drainage ditches. When I lived in Charlotte, I had a buddy who got bit while trying to wedge himself out of the rough. He flubbed the shot (who wouldn't?), but his friends make him take the stroke anyway. They were a tough, pretty competitive bunch...

The only place I ever spent much time where I saw more nasty snakes was in extreme southern Illinois where the rattlesnake, copperhead and cottonmouth ranges overlap. Between the snakes and the bugs, its the tailpipe of the Western Hemisphere...

 

[FarmerDave]

I lived further west, near Asheville. I'm sure they had them there, too. I seem to remember golfing down there a couple times, but if I seem to remember just leaving a few errant shots in the woods. Not because of fear of snakes. It was because of the poison ivy. I usually wore shorts. Now, I have never had a major breakout from that stuff, but that could be because I tried to stay the heck out of it. I think it is the state flower, isn't it? Besides, I didn't see much chance of finding it under that stuff anyway. I would just guess where it went in and take a drop, and a stroke.

I was 6'6" and weighed about 250 at the time with a fondness for playing street hockey. Plus I was golfing with engineers. Who was going to stop me?

 

[Acristickid]

Rare PA snake death.

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/region/2015/07/19/Beaver-County-man-dies-after-rattlesnake-bite-in-Elk-County/stories/201507190201

 

[wgmiller]

There's lots of "chatter" about this on a herp site on Facebook I'm on. The general consensus is there's "more to the story" than what has been reported. For a timber to just randomly show up at a campfire and bite a human defies logic. Theories abound, but the common belief is there was some human interaction involved. We may never know, but a random, unprovoked attack just isn't plausible.

 

[Fishidiot]

acristickid wrote:
Rare PA snake death.

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/region/2015/07/19/Beaver-County-man-dies-after-rattlesnake-bite-in-Elk-County/stories/201507190201

Unusual story indeed. The reported circumstances of the bite are also highly unusual, if accurate.

The article ascribes the cause of death as anaphylactic shock, which I've never heard in reference to reptile envenomation (bee stings, yes) - but I suppose could indeed be possible. Some individuals develop severe reactions to anti-venom that are related to allergic reactions, but apparently this fellow did not receive anti-venom before going into cardiac arrest.

Condolences to his family and friends.

 

[Gone4Day]

Friend of mine has a camp on little Medix. There is a high percentage of rattle snakes around there and finding one in the woodpile (or the outhouse) is not unheard off. Sounds like this individual had an allergic reaction to the bite or some other underlying medical condition that complicated matters. My codolences to his family and friends.

 

[nymphingmaniac]

perhaps its time to move this to the OT forum

 

[Fishidiot]

nymphingmaniac wrote:
perhaps its time to move this to the OT forum

I think it's okay here for now.
As you know, snakes and snake sightings/safety are part of the world of PA FFing, much like other natural or environmental issues.

(Now, if it turns into a partisan political debate, it's getting flushed to OT ASAP)

 

[salmonoid]

Fishidiot wrote:

acristickid wrote:
Rare PA snake death.

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/region/2015/07/19/Beaver-County-man-dies-after-rattlesnake-bite-in-Elk-County/stories/201507190201

Unusual story indeed. The reported circumstances of the bite are also highly unusual, if accurate.

The article ascribes the cause of death as anaphylactic shock, which I've never heard in reference to reptile envenomation (bee stings, yes) - but I suppose could indeed be possible. Some individuals develop severe reactions to anti-venom that are related to allergic reactions, but apparently this fellow did not receive anti-venom before going into cardiac arrest.

Condolences to his family and friends.

Definitely a rarity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2389865

Anaphylactic shock secondary to rattlesnake bite.
Hogan DE, Dire DJ.

Abstract
Anaphylactic reactions to Crotalidae envenomation are extremely rare. The presentation of anaphylaxis after envenomation can be a confusing variable in the timely diagnosis of both problems. The therapy of this dual disorder involves combining treatment of the obvious shock from the allergic reaction with a standard approach to Crotalidae envenomation. We present the case of a 22-year-old man who presented to the emergency department with urticaria, hypotension, and bronchospasm that developed immediately after his second envenomation from a rattlesnake. His symptoms resolved after administration of 0.8 mg SQ epinephrine, 100 mg IV diphenhydramine, 2,000 mL normal saline IV, and 250 mg IV methylprednisolone. Only one previous case report of anaphylactic shock from a rattlesnake bite could be found in the medical literature.

The circumstances surrounding the bite are certainly plausible. Sitting around a campfire after dark, go to the woodpile to get more wood. Reach for a piece of wood on the bottom of a pallet; the herp is under the pallet. Or reach for wood at the top of the pile and the herp is on top. Your heat signature indicates you are moving toward it, it feels threatened and nails you in the leg or arm.

 

[pcray1231]

I agree, the circumstances are plausible.

That's not to say I'm backing them it up in any way, pure statistics may say it's more likely there's more to the story.

But if it is a made up story, it's a plausible one.

 

[k-bob]

sounds like a tragic and rare event. rare to get the bite, and sadly, a rare and terribly adverse reaction to the bite. thanks for linked article, salmonoid.