wildtrout2
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No pics?
BrookieChaser
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sarce
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WestDeerPirate I guarantee those were water snakes. All of your sightings were near water in classic places that water snakes like to hang out...under bridges, high banks, sunning on a rock in the creek. I grew up in that area but only ever heard of copperheads being in the wooded areas. Never saw one around there myself, but water snakes were everywhere. Usually saw several a day exploring those creeks.
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charliepff
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I know the difference between a rattlesnake, a king snake, a black snake, and a copperhead. I know what I saw. It was definitely a rattlesnake. If it wanted to bite me in the nose it could have since I fell a mere foot away from it. If you do not want to believe me that is fine. The park service also confirmed it was a rattlesnake. Not sure what else to say. I run into rattlesnakes at least on a yearly basis along with everything else due to where my house is located. I have no doubt in what I came across.
pcray1231
Well-known member
I have no doubt charliepff saw a rattler there. I very much doubt it was a massassauga, which are just not present anywhere near there. Not within 100's of miles. And never were.
The state of VA has 3 venomous species. Timber rattlers. Copperheads. And cottonmouths. So if it was a rattler, it WAS a timber.
(yes, you could say 4 if you separate timber from canebrake, which VA does, though they are the same species, and its argued whether they are separate subspecies)
I'm guessing it was a young timber.
http://www.covecreekphotography.com/media/image/128987454478732221.jpg
The state of VA has 3 venomous species. Timber rattlers. Copperheads. And cottonmouths. So if it was a rattler, it WAS a timber.
(yes, you could say 4 if you separate timber from canebrake, which VA does, though they are the same species, and its argued whether they are separate subspecies)
I'm guessing it was a young timber.
http://www.covecreekphotography.com/media/image/128987454478732221.jpg
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charliepff
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That is pretty close to the color. Maybe a little more blue. It was a young snake. They were trying to compare the markings in the pic I showed them but it was very shady were I was and we couldn't see the markings well in the pics. I should have taken more pics. They told me they have seen massaugua rattlesnakes on the east coast before.
Here is an article about them being in New York. https://usfwsnortheast.wordpress.com/2013/10/28/rattling-support-for-the-eastern-massasauga/
I don't know. They also ranged into PA at one time. I am sure they are still around. If I had a dollar for every time I seen something that was not supposed to be I wouldn't be on the forum and I would have my own fishing camp somewhere.
Here is an article about them being in New York. https://usfwsnortheast.wordpress.com/2013/10/28/rattling-support-for-the-eastern-massasauga/
I don't know. They also ranged into PA at one time. I am sure they are still around. If I had a dollar for every time I seen something that was not supposed to be I wouldn't be on the forum and I would have my own fishing camp somewhere.
pcray1231
Well-known member
They still do range into PA. They are known to be in NY and PA.
NY: Western part of state, around the lakes. Down to two distinct populations today.
PA: NW part of the state, near Erie.
They are totally absent from the majority of both states, and always were, but both have small regions where there always were, and still are a few.
http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/7154.html
I have my doubts if any have been seen "on the east coast", meaning in or east of the ridge and valley province. Or anywhere on the SE side of the Ohio/Allegheny Rivers.
NY: Western part of state, around the lakes. Down to two distinct populations today.
PA: NW part of the state, near Erie.
They are totally absent from the majority of both states, and always were, but both have small regions where there always were, and still are a few.
http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/7154.html
I have my doubts if any have been seen "on the east coast", meaning in or east of the ridge and valley province. Or anywhere on the SE side of the Ohio/Allegheny Rivers.
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Fishidiot
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Saw an article today about a mysterious fungus that is hurting populations of timbers in New England. Apparently, the isolated populations left up there are particularly vulnerable to this problem, which has been likened to white nose disease in brown bats. It's also been a problem with massasaugas in the mid west.
Anyone know if this is a problem with PA's rattlesnakes?
Anyone know if this is a problem with PA's rattlesnakes?
WestDeerPirate
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Regarding the Massasauga Rattlesnake, I happen to live very near a known den site that has been studied for many years. There is mention of this in the article below. I believe that the Sierra Club in this region has a very good pulse of where they are and the dangers they face being so rare. Here is an article.
Most rural Pennsylvania residents are acquainted with the common snakes that populate our landscape: garter snakes, black rat snakes, black racers, milk snakes and others. And anyone who hikes the woodlands, fields and trails of the state knows to watch for copperheads and timber rattlers, our two common venomous varieties. Much less well known is the Eastern Massasauga rattlesnake, Pennsylvania’s only endangered snake species. This small rattlesnake is classified in Pennsylvania as a “critically imperiled endangered species” and is eligible for federal endangered species listing as well.
They currently populate only Mercer, Butler and Venango counties in western Pennsylvania.
Massasaugas are small, rather stout rattlesnakes with large dark brown or black blotches on the back and sides that stand out against a light gray background. The small rattle sounds like the buzz of an insect and is so soft it can barely be heard from more than five feet away. The young are born alive at about nine inches in length with a “button” on a yellow tipped tail instead of a real rattle. Massasaugas are secretive and docile, rarely striking unless disturbed.
Massasaugas emerge from hibernation in April and live in wet lowland meadows and grasslands, where they feed on small rodents. In late spring and summer, they move to drier upland fields and pastures, where they bask and forage for food. Breeding and birth of young take place in August and September. In fall, winter and early spring they hibernate in crayfish burrows or fissures where they have access to water.
Habitat destruction is the main reason for the alarming decline of this important endangered species. Currently, forest succession, the growth of trees in previously grassy areas, accounts for 75% of their habitat loss. Surface mining and urban development also contribute to habitat destruction. The Massasauga is considered an umbrella species, that is, one whose habitat, if protected, also benefits other species that share similar environment. Deer, turkey, grouse, woodcocks and rabbits can often be found in the grass and underbrush of Massasauga habitat. Because of their sensitivity to environmental degradation, these snakes serve as indicators of environmental quality. They also help to control the
rodent population and rodent-carried disease.
The Western Pennsylvania Conservancy conducts research on Massasauga populations by tagging and tracking individual snakes. And, because Massasauga habitat is often on private land, this organization also offers a program of land management and protection. Technical and financial assistance may be available through various conservation programs and organizations. Interested landowners can contact the Western Pennsylvania Conservancy at waterlandlife.org or the Pennsylvania Fish & Boat Commission at fishandboat.com/habitat.htm for more information.
Gwen Chute
Member Allegheny Group Sierra Club
Endangered Species Action Team
p.s. Some of the snakes I used to come across in Chester County were Copperheads. The water snakes I would come across there were water snakes.
Most rural Pennsylvania residents are acquainted with the common snakes that populate our landscape: garter snakes, black rat snakes, black racers, milk snakes and others. And anyone who hikes the woodlands, fields and trails of the state knows to watch for copperheads and timber rattlers, our two common venomous varieties. Much less well known is the Eastern Massasauga rattlesnake, Pennsylvania’s only endangered snake species. This small rattlesnake is classified in Pennsylvania as a “critically imperiled endangered species” and is eligible for federal endangered species listing as well.
They currently populate only Mercer, Butler and Venango counties in western Pennsylvania.
Massasaugas are small, rather stout rattlesnakes with large dark brown or black blotches on the back and sides that stand out against a light gray background. The small rattle sounds like the buzz of an insect and is so soft it can barely be heard from more than five feet away. The young are born alive at about nine inches in length with a “button” on a yellow tipped tail instead of a real rattle. Massasaugas are secretive and docile, rarely striking unless disturbed.
Massasaugas emerge from hibernation in April and live in wet lowland meadows and grasslands, where they feed on small rodents. In late spring and summer, they move to drier upland fields and pastures, where they bask and forage for food. Breeding and birth of young take place in August and September. In fall, winter and early spring they hibernate in crayfish burrows or fissures where they have access to water.
Habitat destruction is the main reason for the alarming decline of this important endangered species. Currently, forest succession, the growth of trees in previously grassy areas, accounts for 75% of their habitat loss. Surface mining and urban development also contribute to habitat destruction. The Massasauga is considered an umbrella species, that is, one whose habitat, if protected, also benefits other species that share similar environment. Deer, turkey, grouse, woodcocks and rabbits can often be found in the grass and underbrush of Massasauga habitat. Because of their sensitivity to environmental degradation, these snakes serve as indicators of environmental quality. They also help to control the
rodent population and rodent-carried disease.
The Western Pennsylvania Conservancy conducts research on Massasauga populations by tagging and tracking individual snakes. And, because Massasauga habitat is often on private land, this organization also offers a program of land management and protection. Technical and financial assistance may be available through various conservation programs and organizations. Interested landowners can contact the Western Pennsylvania Conservancy at waterlandlife.org or the Pennsylvania Fish & Boat Commission at fishandboat.com/habitat.htm for more information.
Gwen Chute
Member Allegheny Group Sierra Club
Endangered Species Action Team
p.s. Some of the snakes I used to come across in Chester County were Copperheads. The water snakes I would come across there were water snakes.
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charliepff
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Thank you west deer pirate. Great info. The senior guy in the national park that day told me if he had a dollar for every time he seen something that was not suppose to be there he would have been retired already. It cracked me up, but he was not laughing.
FarmerDave
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pcray1231
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I don't see anything he said which supports the possibility of Massasauga's in Virginia?
extreme western/NW PA counties. They are supposed to be there. They've always been there. This is not at all outside their range.
Virginia is outside their range. My problem with you seeing one in Virginia is based on the fact that there aren't any in Virginia. I'll certainly walk back my stance on that if we start seeing any official documentations of a Massasauga population in Virginia.
If you had seen one in Butler County, PA, I'd have just said it's really cool that you saw one.
extreme western/NW PA counties. They are supposed to be there. They've always been there. This is not at all outside their range.
Virginia is outside their range. My problem with you seeing one in Virginia is based on the fact that there aren't any in Virginia. I'll certainly walk back my stance on that if we start seeing any official documentations of a Massasauga population in Virginia.
If you had seen one in Butler County, PA, I'd have just said it's really cool that you saw one.
FarmerDave
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Pat is right except some experts now believe they are no longer in Erie County but that would be impossible to prove. Some maps do still include that area such as the NY DEC, but recent PA maps do not.
With he exception of a couple isolated pockets in Western NY state, the eastern most boundary is probably in Western Venango county in PA
PA link
NY link
Ohio, ODNR
nice little video on the Michigan site.
You aren't going to find them near a hiking trail in the Virginia Aps. In fact, you aren't going to find them near many hiking trails even in there range unless it cuts trough a swamp.
1. They are not considered a woodland snake and prefer wet areas.
2. Furthermore, they tend to be small isolated populations and they do not travel far.
Unless a bald eagle from Ohio dropped it there on the way to Florida, or it was a rubber facsimile, it wasn't a Massasauga.
I wouldn't count on park ranger's identification, either.
I never saw a Massasauga and they ARE in my county.
salmonoid
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There is an interesting correlation between the habitat range of the Massasauga and the extent of glaciation. Look at a map of the end moraines and overlay that with the range of the Massasauga. For the most part, no glaciers = no snakes, the exception being the Driftless region of Wisconsin. My theory would be that the swamps and wetlands left behind following glaciation are the habitat they have adapted to and the destruction of that habitat is why their numbers have declined.
Swattie87
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Clearly we can’t be certain in the absence of a physical ID on the individual snake charlie saw, but as the others have mentioned I think it’s far more likely it was a Timber. Timbers have tremendous variation in their coloration and pattern, and given where the snake was located (essentially the heart of Timber territory), it was probably a Timber.
Is it possible a Massasauga was there? Sure…maybe someone illegally caught and kept one, then released it in VA. Maybe it hitched a ride in a load of lumber. Possible, sure…likely, no. And definitely not as likely as a simple misidentification of a Timber. There are no known reproducing populations of Massasauga’s in that area now, or ever. If there are, and it’s gone undocumented until now then it’s on the level of Sasquatch, or Mountain Lions being present in PA, and the like. Although nowhere close to VA, the Massasauga is struggling to retain its footprint on its eastern population boundary due to habitat loss as it is. If anything, it’s getting further from VA.
Is it possible a Massasauga was there? Sure…maybe someone illegally caught and kept one, then released it in VA. Maybe it hitched a ride in a load of lumber. Possible, sure…likely, no. And definitely not as likely as a simple misidentification of a Timber. There are no known reproducing populations of Massasauga’s in that area now, or ever. If there are, and it’s gone undocumented until now then it’s on the level of Sasquatch, or Mountain Lions being present in PA, and the like. Although nowhere close to VA, the Massasauga is struggling to retain its footprint on its eastern population boundary due to habitat loss as it is. If anything, it’s getting further from VA.
FarmerDave
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Charlie,
If I had to chose between only Massasagua or Pigmy Rattlesnake along Rose River and go by your description alone and no photo, I'd have to say it had to be Pygmy.
Pygmy range extends up the east coast almost to the Virginia line and that at least is on the right side of the mountain range.
And check out the little bastage about 45 seconds into this video.
Then google pictures. Some are even more bluish.
But if those are not my only choices and you did not see a distinct rattle, my first guess would be a juvenile Rat Snake. Possibley juvenile Black Racer.
Here is a good website for identifying snakes of Virginia. Loved he pictures of Eastern Hognose. Now that is a weird snake.
Pygmy Rattler is not in there, but it wouldn't surprise me much if range has extended into Virginia. I just drive through that area of recently. And with all the rain we had this June, damn thing could probably swim that far.;-)
If I had to chose between only Massasagua or Pigmy Rattlesnake along Rose River and go by your description alone and no photo, I'd have to say it had to be Pygmy.
Pygmy range extends up the east coast almost to the Virginia line and that at least is on the right side of the mountain range.
And check out the little bastage about 45 seconds into this video.
Then google pictures. Some are even more bluish.
But if those are not my only choices and you did not see a distinct rattle, my first guess would be a juvenile Rat Snake. Possibley juvenile Black Racer.
Here is a good website for identifying snakes of Virginia. Loved he pictures of Eastern Hognose. Now that is a weird snake.
Pygmy Rattler is not in there, but it wouldn't surprise me much if range has extended into Virginia. I just drive through that area of recently. And with all the rain we had this June, damn thing could probably swim that far.;-)
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charliepff
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Well, I cant find the picture for it. I looked on all the cameras and I can not even find the rest of the pictures from that trip. It was probably just a really blue timber rattlesnake. I am just thankful it was not irritable that day and I did not get to see what an anti venom bill is like to pay off. If I would have know what debate this would turn into, I would not have posted to begin with.
wildtrout2
Well-known member
You will quickly learn that many things get dissected around. It's all good. lol
FarmerDave
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Why?
Is debate bad?
I understand that nobody likes being told they might have been mistaken, but some people do learn from debates like this. Please don't take it personal.
If you do find the picture, pleas share it with us.
