The Elitist Fly Fisherman....Reality or Myth?

Mike it's not a club, you may think it is, and many members view it that way but it is a conservation organization. they do target a demographic that it upper middle income though.
I can vouch for vealboy, I've fished with him several times and he catches a lot of fish and they are all released unharmed. It's all in how he does it.
 
chaz i have stated 2 or 3 times in this that i understand it is not a fly fishing club but a conservation organization.
 
A yearly membership to TU is $35, I'd hardly call that targeting upper middle income.

If T.A.P. is for all anglers then I highly suggest they change the message on their home page. I have nothing in the world against the organization.



 
troutbert wrote:
RCFetter wrote:
The term "elitist" does not have a negative connotation to me.

It does for the original poster. And I think in nearly all cases, the word "elitist" is meant to have a negative connotation.

The word "elite," however, means someone who really excels in something. For example, the term "elite athlete" means someone who is really among the best. It refers to their accomplishments and abilities.

And the term "elitist" refers to a type of attitude of snobbery, looking down on other people, etc.

You are correct. I looked up the definitions of elite, elitism and elitist and those terms do have a negative connotation (with some rare exceptions).

Relative to fly fishing, perhaps I'm confusing an elitist with an enthusiast skilled in the art and science.
 
Mike I like your new avatar, maybe you could put crosshairs on it, then you may have been able to get a meal and tying material with one shot of a 22 cal. This statement is in no way meant to offend anybody
 
Let's just ask, if the TAP guys were to get support for no harvest all tackle would TAP support that? I have my doubts. I also have my doubts that any of the special regs areas in the state would maintain there trout populations if they were open to bait fishing.
I look at it this way, there are 15,000+ miles of ATW, there are less then 500 miles of Special Regulations waters and a fiar number ARE open to ALL TACKLE.
I have a clue for them, the best waters in PA are not necessarily the Special Regulations areas. Most of the best water is open with no regulations at all. To me this is a huge problem, because it allows guys to clean out wild trout streams of all the legal size and large fish as they please. That would take us back to the turn of the century, and I mean the turn of the 20th century, when only the very best streams had wild trout. All the rest were stocked.
OH BTW no one says the tap members can't fish special regs areas, they just can't use their questionable traditional methods.
Fly-fishing has been around at least 8,00 years, to me that's traditional.
 
yes elitism does exist.

go to any scottish salmon river. full of a-holes.

i've been told to my face that striper fly fishing is not 'real' fly fishing.

there's also a base snobbery that small wild streams are better than stocked larger streams (they are LOL....)

i'm also guessing that the regulars of those private clubs look down on us commoners who fish public waters.

it's the way of the world sadly.
 
geebee wrote:
yes elitism does exist.

go to any scottish salmon river. full of a-holes.

i've been told to my face that striper fly fishing is not 'real' fly fishing.

there's also a base snobbery that small wild streams are better than stocked larger streams (they are LOL....)

i'm also guessing that the regulars of those private clubs look down on us commoners who fish public waters.

it's the way of the world sadly.

So you have been to Scottish salmon rivers?
 
pcray1231 wrote:
Tom, I agree with your reasons. And for some of those reasons, it should not surprise anyone that a fly fishermen is MORE likely to get involved than a spin or bait guy. It's not praise or a cut on either group. It's just how it shakes out. Both groups have a number of good, knowledgable guys who are likely to get involved. Both have a few selfish a-holes who refuse to get involved even though they know better. And both have those who are too inexperienced to understand, or lack the time/money to help. The overrepresentation of fly fishermen and under-representation of spin/bait fishermen in conservation is expected due to only the relative abundance of the last category, not the former two.

But, that ignores the fact that spin/bait fishermen still outnumber fly fishermen 10 to 1. So even if spin/bait fishermen should be underrepresented compared to their overall abundance, they should still be pretty well represented. And they are. When you look at conservancies, watershed associations, and the like, they are well represented and they do indeed get into conservation efforts. Just not via TU.

The fact that TU guys are saying, "oh, we have a spin fisher in our chapter", is proof enough. They should be a sizable % of the chapter, if not the majority. They're out there. They do care. They do get involved. It's just that, for whatever reason, TU isn't their chosen path. And it absolutely does stem from the impression that TU is a fly fishing club. I'm not saying the impression is true, I'm just saying it exists. And both sides give it lip service. TU claims to welcome non-fly fishermen. Non-fly fishermen claim not to oppose TU. And they aren't lies. But neither side goes to much effort to bridge the gap.

Pat,
I have listened to your endless dribble about the conservancies versus TU efforts for a long time. You lived in Berks County for quite some time and I never ran into you at any of the TU meetings, Berks Conservancy Meetings or Berks County Conservation District meetings and I was at most of them. I did not see you out there with any of the stream improvement projects on the many varied streams of Berks County. I would challenge you to look at the salaries, grant writing costs, overhead and expenses of these organizations that your propose give such great bang for the buck and advise me why it is that you feel that the average conservancy is of greater value. I mean I assume you put some time and effort into some organization somewhere. Look at the % of money going directly to conservation versus overhead and fund raising. Last, I would suggest that you look at the official position of the largest conservation and land trust organization in eastern PA and note that the vast majority of the streams located on these lands, which are held for the public, are posted against fishing.

 
mike_richardson wrote:
Or is TU targeting the members who on average spend the most money on fishing gear, thus putting more money in the club. 😉

I'm sorry, somewhere in all your illogically strung together sentences I think you mentioned that you did not universally #censor# on TU. Do you need to me to individually pull up each and every single one of your TU slams and create a new thread? One where you can step in and scream LOOK AT ME I CREATED MORE DRAMA!

So how is Lacy?
 
BradFromPotter wrote:

So you have been to Scottish salmon rivers?


yeah the Spey at Grantown, and the Ness.

caught nothing both times -my Dad used to work for BP at the Nigg Oil terminal north of Inverness.

the only salmon we saw were in the fish ladder windows at Pilochry on the Tummel on the way home...
 
Jdaddy ok you support tu, which is about coldwater conservation, not just fishing. You mention that you have even worked on tu projects to protect streams where you can't fish. Imho that's a good thing.

Since you support conservation and not just fishing, why not be more positive about land preservation groups, which permanently protect habitat from development, but may not allow fishing? (Instead of suggesting that people look in to the "salaries, overhead, expenses" of typical land preservation groups?)
 
geebee wrote:
yes elitism does exist.

go to any scottish salmon river. full of a-holes.

Watch it there buddy. We've earned that elitism. When you can stand in a river in a kilt and catch salmon all day with a 13' spey rod....you'll feel pretty special too (typed in with my best Scot accent) :-D
 
jdaddy wrote:
pcray1231 wrote:
Tom, I agree with your reasons. And for some of those reasons, it should not surprise anyone that a fly fishermen is MORE likely to get involved than a spin or bait guy. It's not praise or a cut on either group. It's just how it shakes out. Both groups have a number of good, knowledgable guys who are likely to get involved. Both have a few selfish a-holes who refuse to get involved even though they know better. And both have those who are too inexperienced to understand, or lack the time/money to help. The overrepresentation of fly fishermen and under-representation of spin/bait fishermen in conservation is expected due to only the relative abundance of the last category, not the former two.

But, that ignores the fact that spin/bait fishermen still outnumber fly fishermen 10 to 1. So even if spin/bait fishermen should be underrepresented compared to their overall abundance, they should still be pretty well represented. And they are. When you look at conservancies, watershed associations, and the like, they are well represented and they do indeed get into conservation efforts. Just not via TU.

The fact that TU guys are saying, "oh, we have a spin fisher in our chapter", is proof enough. They should be a sizable % of the chapter, if not the majority. They're out there. They do care. They do get involved. It's just that, for whatever reason, TU isn't their chosen path. And it absolutely does stem from the impression that TU is a fly fishing club. I'm not saying the impression is true, I'm just saying it exists. And both sides give it lip service. TU claims to welcome non-fly fishermen. Non-fly fishermen claim not to oppose TU. And they aren't lies. But neither side goes to much effort to bridge the gap.

Pat,
I have listened to your endless dribble about the conservancies versus TU efforts for a long time. You lived in Berks County for quite some time and I never ran into you at any of the TU meetings, Berks Conservancy Meetings or Berks County Conservation District meetings and I was at most of them. I did not see you out there with any of the stream improvement projects on the many varied streams of Berks County. I would challenge you to look at the salaries, grant writing costs, overhead and expenses of these organizations that your propose give such great bang for the buck and advise me why it is that you feel that the average conservancy is of greater value. I mean I assume you put some time and effort into some organization somewhere. Look at the % of money going directly to conservation versus overhead and fund raising. Last, I would suggest that you look at the official position of the largest conservation and land trust organization in eastern PA and note that the vast majority of the streams located on these lands, which are held for the public, are posted against fishing.

The operable word in all of these wintertime debates is "versus". For debate value, we keep placing entities or ideologies in competition with each other. Stocked vs. wild. Elitism vs. commoner. Bait vs. fly vs. spin. TU vs. land conservancy.

The reality is there is room for all viewpoints. And contrary to how one viewpoint may view another viewpoint, the viewpoints are often NOT mutually exclusive. For instance, TU is about coldwater conservation, but that conservation is going to have a whole lot longer effect if its done on a stream where the land in the drainage is preserved. I don't see TU buying a lot of land; I do see conservancies buying a lot of land. I don't see conservancies doing a lot to enhance stream habitat, but I do see TU having the potential to partner with conservancies to do that.

If a stream is enhanced and is on conservancy lands, and even if fishing is prohibited there (which I personally don't like, because, selfishly, I'm a fisherman), the fish still benefit from the stream habitat improvement and the land preservation efforts. Thankfully, our local conservancy only has a handful of properties where fishing is prohibited (I suspect because of deed restrictions at the time of land gifting). But there's open water above and below the one property they own, so that little stretch becomes a bit of a sanctuary for the fish, or at least thats how I view it. I'm not sure who the Eastern conservancy is that prohibits fishing; as a land owner, they have the right to do so, which trumps my right to feeling entitled to fish their streams.

Regarding the thousands of stream miles in the state that are fishable for trout, I find it amazing that groups take positions on the fraction of a percent that they can't fish via a mechanism of their preference. Get over it. Life isn't fair and we don't always get our desires. I guess its the old grass is greener on the other side view; its that which one doesn't have that is more desirable, simply because one doesn't have it. Be thankful for the 99.8% of waters that ARE fishable. Fly fisher people and bait fisher people are generally not a threat to stream habitat loss; the artificial divisions created by the "versus" mentality are a real threat to our ability to put a common front against real threats to stream habitat loss.
 
salmonoid wrote:

The operable word in all of these wintertime debates is "versus". For debate value, we keep placing entities or ideologies in competition with each other. Stocked vs. wild. Elitism vs. commoner. Bait vs. fly vs. spin. TU vs. land conservancy.

The reality is there is room for all viewpoints. And contrary to how one viewpoint may view another viewpoint, the viewpoints are often NOT mutually exclusive. For instance, TU is about coldwater conservation, but that conservation is going to have a whole lot longer effect if its done on a stream where the land in the drainage is preserved. I don't see TU buying a lot of land; I do see conservancies buying a lot of land. I don't see conservancies doing a lot to enhance stream habitat, but I do see TU having the potential to partner with conservancies to do that.

If a stream is enhanced and is on conservancy lands, and even if fishing is prohibited there (which I personally don't like, because, selfishly, I'm a fisherman), the fish still benefit from the stream habitat improvement and the land preservation efforts. Thankfully, our local conservancy only has a handful of properties where fishing is prohibited (I suspect because of deed restrictions at the time of land gifting). But there's open water above and below the one property they own, so that little stretch becomes a bit of a sanctuary for the fish, or at least thats how I view it. I'm not sure who the Eastern conservancy is that prohibits fishing; as a land owner, they have the right to do so, which trumps my right to feeling entitled to fish their streams.

Regarding the thousands of stream miles in the state that are fishable for trout, I find it amazing that groups take positions on the fraction of a percent that they can't fish via a mechanism of their preference. Get over it. Life isn't fair and we don't always get our desires. I guess its the old grass is greener on the other side view; its that which one doesn't have that is more desirable, simply because one doesn't have it. Be thankful for the 99.8% of waters that ARE fishable. Fly fisher people and bait fisher people are generally not a threat to stream habitat loss; the artificial divisions created by the "versus" mentality are a real threat to our ability to put a common front against real threats to stream habitat loss.

There is Iron in your words of life.

This "elitism" claim boils down to a progression of complexity. We all start out on tri-cycles and training wheels. The easiest way to teach a young'un to fish is with a closed face, casting rod. It keeps the line in the water more and increases the chance of catching. Bait also increases these chances. Typical progression moves to spin tackle and lures and then to Flyfishing. Each more complex and difficult to master. How far you move through the progression demonstrates your curiosity and desire to try new things and reach for more challenging goals. These traits generally spill over into other portions of your life including your charity and volunteerism contributions.

Those trout anglers not willing to explore fly fishing for whatever reason generally find themselves associated with put and take clubs. Its a good fit but make no mistake, it demonstrates the challenge has stopped for these anglers. They are caught in an endless cycle of put and take. Feathering their nests for each season and dropping the activity when it appears the results don't support the effort.

Those anglers that pushed themselves to not only try flyfishing but struggled with success, seek advice, lessons and other research to improve, think differently. The pursuit drives them, their desire for more and more information leads to knowledge and data about abundance in their quarry. Some find TU to learn to flyfish cuz thats where the flyfishers are. But the flyfishers are there because by and large they understand there is more to this thing than putting fish in and taking them out. Habitat improvement and access are their progressive goals on improving their passion. Most who join TU to learn to flyfish don't have the vision or desire to put their time into those goals but usually understand and appreciate those that do so they hold onto membership but do not invest their time. Very, very few TU members are not fishermen, very very few are spin fishermen, this is no accident. Cold water conservation is not a instant reward endeavor. You have to have the intellectual curiosity to learn and vision and desire to pursue these goals. This is the way TU/flyfishermen feather their nests.

Thats why there is division. The short term, immediate reward camp puts less thought and effort into their passion. They are invested in the seasonal renewal through stocking and removing trout.

Conversely, the long term thinkers and doers in TU feel invested in the natural reproduction of their passion. Their result takes much more effort and protection from harvest to be successful. Often their results are not tangible. In addition their efforts can be diminished by the short term, immediate return crowd.

The two groups can and do overlap in interest level and effort. Many flyfishermen like to catch fish, the put and take clubs make trout yearly and it can be hard to resist. Drawing the lines between the two becomes the challenge. The line is in a different place for every person. Some anglers, "the most elite" cannot waver on their passion to protect wild trout because of their investment or understanding of those others who sacrificed to produce these results.

These are the "two sides" in the war of trout. They are tangible groups with names and manifestos. They have investment, goals and product produced. They are easy to find, define and attack. But there is another angle in this angling war...the guerrilla fishermen. These are the anglers who have the intellectual curiosity to research the best spots, use them and invest nothing for their reward.

These "users" are in both camps. Flyfishers and spin fishers. Elitists and inferiors. You know who you are...just know this, your experiences are enhanced by the efforts of someone else. To me these are the elitists, those entitled to all the spoils with very little toil on their part.

I have respect for the first two groups....not so much for the third.

There that ought to push a few pages.

:lol:
 
Right the trout don't care what group helped the habitat.

For ex some old private fishing clubs have done a lot to protect watersheds ... Even if I can't fish on their land its a good thing. And maybe I can find another part of the improved watershed where I can fish.
 
Many TU members are also members of conservancies. At least that is the case here in Centre County.

The main conservancy here is Clearwater Conservancy. The main founder of Clearwater, the guy who got it going, was a Spring Creek TU member, and several other of the early members were TU members also.

 
Also, EPCAMR surveyed streams formerly owned by coal interests last year in a joint project with A TU chapter; the streams now belong to a conservancy.
 
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