Burd Run (Cumberland County) gone dry?

[wgmiller]

I was out doing some recon yesterday in western Cumberland County and figured I'd give Burd Run a try. It's listed as "Class A" on the PFBC site, so I figured the chance of finding at least some fish was a possibility. I didn't find much of interest in the Shippensburg University stretch or downstream (blocked off farmland), so I decided to check upstream. As I peered upstream of Britton Rd, I found the stream sealed off again by fencing for cattle, etc. Undeterred, I moved over to King St and figured I'd work upstream from there. The only problem is there was no upstream. As I parked along Walnut Bottom Road to check out the stream, I found a completely dry creek bed. Not just like recently dry, but obviously dry for quite some time. I found the same at King St and where Walnut Bottom Rd crosses Burd Run. Finally deterred, I didn't bother to check any further upstream, as the creek does run quite a ways upstream (into Michaux SF). On the map I was able to locate a spring source on the farm just upstream of Britton Rd that is likely supplying limited water to the creek. The water level in the stretch of the SU Campus Farm was also quite low. That being said, does anyone have any more info on Burd Run going dry? Where is the water going from the headwaters? Middle Spring Creek in Shippensburg was also super low. It was a fun day to be out exploring - just not catching.

Burd Run gone dry (adjacent to Walnut Bottom Rd)

Spring source for creek flowing into SU campus; dry above here.

PFBC map showing Burd Run Class A. I found it to be dry between Rt 11 and 81.

Middle Spring Creek @ Doc Norcross Park. Some nice habitat...if there was only some water.

Middle Spring Creek @ Doc Norcross Park

 

[Bamboozle]

I'd reach out to the AFM or Fisheries for Area 7 and ask them: (717) 486-3157.

The SC WCO might also have some insight.

What I do know is some of those small limestoners down there disappear underground only to pop up somewhere downstream. There are others that only seem to flowing in early spring and others have been minuscule for a LONG time.

All of the development, well drilling and sinkholes haven't helped either...

 

[Mikey2006]

I don’t think it was listed as class a before this year, I never remember seeing it on the map as a green line. I fish the area near long pine and Caledonia a lot and I’ve went to check it out last year, at least in the headwaters, and it just wasn’t there. I would literally be directly overtop of where it was supposed to be flowing on the map and there was no water

 

[Mike]

I'd reach out to the AFM or Fisheries for Area 7 and ask them: (717) 486-3157.

The SC WCO might also have some insight.

What I do know is some of those small limestoners down there disappear underground only to pop up somewhere downstream. There are others that only seem to flowing in early spring and others have been minuscule for a LONG time.

All of the development, well drilling and sinkholes haven't helped either...

Yes, AFM Bryan Chikotas or his assisting fisheries biologist, John Frederick, should be able to help you. They’re stationed not far from there.

 

[krayfish2]

I actually drove through and around Shippensburg the other day doing a site survey for a job. I bought a few of the creeks in the area and was curious myself. I didn't seem to notice one that ran dry but I was trying not to get in an accident well staring at creeks

 

[Bamboozle]

I just checked the most current Class A LIST and ONLY Section 03 of Burd Run is listed as Class A.

That section is basically from Route 11 DOWNSTREAM to the mouth; in other words IN Shippensburg.

The entire stream is on the Wild Trout Waters (Natural Reproduction) List but anybody who has chased down trickles on that list knows that in many cases you have a hard time finding a stream "from headwaters to mouth."

Bottom line, unless there was ANOTHER change to the Class A List since November 8, 2024 when the list I am referencing was created...

The map is wrong.

Which may be why I go by the lists and do my own mapping. 😉

 

[wgmiller]

I don’t think it was listed as class a before this year, I never remember seeing it on the map as a green line. I fish the area near long pine and Caledonia a lot and I’ve went to check it out last year, at least in the headwaters, and it just wasn’t there. I would literally be directly overtop of where it was supposed to be flowing on the map and there was no water

What's interesting is the PFBC Class A list shows it as being Class A from Ritner Highway (RT 11, King St, etc.) to the mouth for a total distance of 1.92 miles, which is its confluence with Middle Spring Creek.

The PFBC interactive map tells a whole different story, which covers most of what seems to be the dry creek bed. There's a pretty big disparity between 1.92 miles of Class A water and 10.4 miles of Class A water, of which 8.48 miles seems to be dry creek bed.

According to historical records, it was surveyed in 2023 from Ritner Highway to the confluence with Middle Spring Creek and found with a brown trout biomass of 41.97 kg/ha. I can't find any data on there being trout upstream of Route 11 to the headwaters.

 

[Bamboozle]

It's on the Natural Reproduction List from "headwaters to mouth" which means wild trout were found, but I THINK that can include down to a Class C or D biomass.

If if was me, I'd send an email to whoever is responsible for those maps and advise them of the inaccuracy..

 

[dc410]

I’m dubious to the 1.92 miles listed on the class A list. Burd Run is actually less than 1.5 miles from Ritner Highway to its confluence with Middle Spring Creek, maybe I’m splitting hairs but the distance on the PFBC website should be correct, or maybe not, huh?

 

[troutbert]

In limestone country it's not unusual for sections of a stream channel to be dry, where the water is flowing underground in the limestone aquifer, then further down the water exits at springs.

This sinkage occurs naturally. But it can also be intensified by groundwater withdrawals, such as wells for water supply, and pumping down the groundwater to allow quarries to work deeper.

 

[wgmiller]

In limestone country it's not unusual for sections of a stream channel to be dry, where the water is flowing underground in the limestone aquifer, then further down the water exits at springs.

This sinkage occurs naturally. But it can also be intensified by groundwater withdrawals, such as wells for water supply, and pumping down the groundwater to allow quarries to work deeper.

It's interesting because the infrastructure is there. Either it swells with runoff when it rains or it once flowed above ground. Kinda reminds me of the "Los Angeles River". It's dry and a big concrete channel most of the time until it rains then all of a sudden it's the Los Angeles River.

 

[Mike]

I’m dubious to the 1.92 miles listed on the class A list. Burd Run is actually less than 1.5 miles from Ritner Highway to its confluence with Middle Spring Creek, maybe I’m splitting hairs but the distance on the PFBC website should be correct, or maybe not, huh?

It wouldn’t surprise me if measurements for stream specific segments vary or have varied with the tools used to generate the measurements and the skills of the users employing those tools, whether electronic or manual.

As for streams and all of their tribs being designated as wild trout streams throughout their lengths, all that needs to be accomplished in a worst case scenario is to find the minimum qualifying number of wild trout within a 100m stretch at the mouth of the main stream (receiving stream). As the simplest example, finding 3 YOY in 100m of stream does it even if much of the rest of the stream and its tribs are not inhabited by wild trout. This may include sections that 1) sink or 2) dry up with various frequencies in association with weather patterns. The logic is that activities occurring upstream can affect the fish at or near the mouth.

This above is why in the worst case scenario you may fish a stream or a particular stream segment and never even see a wild trout even though the stream is designated as a wild trout stream from the hw to the mouth. A Class A designation with specific section limits is much more of a reliable tool for anglers to locate a wild trout stretch with an abundance of wild trout although abundance can and does vary considerably in many streams.

 

[Bamboozle]

I’m dubious to the 1.92 miles listed on the class A list. Burd Run is actually less than 1.5 miles from Ritner Highway to its confluence with Middle Spring Creek, maybe I’m splitting hairs but the distance on the PFBC website should be correct, or maybe not, huh?

It wouldn’t surprise me if measurements for stream specific segments vary or have varied with the tools used to generate the measurements and the skills of the users employing those tools, whether electronic or manual...

While its precise accuracy may be called into question, a quick measurement on Google Maps shows a straight line distance from US 11 (Ritner Hwy) to the mouth of Burn Run of 1.69 miles however I was always under the assumption the PFBC implied "river miles" when indicating distances.

If that assumption is correct, I would imagine the length of Section 03 is easily 1.92 miles.

 

[wgmiller]

It looks like they're spot-on. I stepped it off in Google Maps and came up with 1.93 miles, which is close enough for government work.

 

[Mike]

Yes, river miles are what are used, so measuring stream or section lengths involves being skilled and careful enough to accurately take all of the straight line, gradual curve, and most trying, the tight “zig-zag” distances into account.

I just now saw the above. Nice job/depiction wg. Credit also to the Area 7 staff for getting it right.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

GIS mapping in Arcmap allows measuring of linear features such as streams. No manual clicking or following a stream on Google Earth needed anymore.

 

[troutbert]

GIS mapping in Arcmap allows measuring of linear features such as streams. No manual clicking or following a stream

I've noticed that in GIS mapping the streams are often very inaccurate.

With good imagery you can often see where the actual stream channel is located, and notice that the blue stream line from the GIS mapping is often very far off.

I don't know what causes this.

 

[Dave_W]

I work at at the university and drive along this stream on a near daily basis. Although I have not been by in the last few days, the stream was low but running fine in the headwaters in recent days. It's a very small stream.

This is one of those odd streams that originate as a forest freestoner and that transitions in the valley to a small limestoner. There is an entire network of tiny spring creeks and ditches around town and it's not unusual during dry times for some of them to be flowing underground.