The Assault Continues...

[NewSal]

pcray1231 wrote:
Sal, I'd suggest listening to FrankTroutAngler on topics regarding fishing with spinners. Dude and his brother may have caught more trout than anyone, using any method, east of the Mississippi.

That's a bold statement..

And to say that you should end your spinner drift after it gets to your position and not let it continue past you downstream and swing would be ridiculous. I don't know if what I said is being confused with actually casting downstream or what, but to not let your spinner go past your location after being casted upstream and letting it go downstream and swing across is something I've never seen in my life. But its a null topic doesn't matter whatsoever regardless

 

[RyanR]

delete.

 

[bingsbaits]

Size of the fish targeted makes a difference also. Stab a couple thousand 4" baby trout with treble hooks and you can't tell me you aren't killing a bunch.

 

[pcray1231]

Dude and his brother may have caught more trout than anyone, using any method, east of the Mississippi.

That's a bold statement..

Will admit I haven't compared reported numbers. Hence my use of the word "may". But I doubt it's as bold as you think it is. As a highly successful spinner fishermen, recognized as one of the best among a style of fishing that racks up numbers, and a meticulous record keeper to boot, I think it's safe to say he's at least in the conversation, and possible that he walks away with that title.

 

[KenU]

pcray- Great study. That is real science. I hope this gets around to the PFBC, especially the commissioners.

 

[pcray1231]

I hope this gets around to the PFBC, especially the commissioners.

Mike is the one that pointed me towards it, FYI.

 

[Zak]

"And to say that you should end your spinner drift after it gets to your position and not let it continue past you downstream and swing would be ridiculous. I don't know if what I said is being confused with actually casting downstream or what, but to not let your spinner go past your location after being casted upstream and letting it go downstream and swing across is something I've never seen in my life."


This is exactly what Im suggesting....but defintiely not insisting on my friend. Reeling the spinner straight back to your rod tip with no swing at all, and move swiftly from spot to spot, will result in more fish caught. If you haven't tried it then I would suggested you at least give it a good shot. Swinging the spinner downstream of you suggests that you're working fish that are facing in your direction thus some fish may see you first. That doesn't mean that you dont catch plenty of fish and that it isn't effective. Again, swing away, I dont care. All I'm saying is to be open minded about other approaches if you want to reduce your already small hooking mortality right and increase the number of trout that you catch. It's an effective and very safe approach to the already safe hobby of spinner fishing. I may also be a crazy person.....;-)

Apologies for taking this debate in another direction. This wasn't meant to be a spinner tactic debate haha.

 

[Zak]

"Size of the fish targeted makes a difference also. Stab a couple thousand 4" baby trout with treble hooks and you can't tell me you aren't killing a bunch."

Lips are lips my man! 20" or 4". hook'em in the lip and they're all getting home the family that evening. A size 10 treble is almost impossible for a 4" trout to swallow.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

I'm sorry but this is all rubbish. :lol:

Too much to single out it would be a waste of time.

 

[pcray1231]

Perhaps you missed, in the same post, where I said "I have no issue with baitfishing if we're creeling the trout but it has no place in any type of regulated C&R or selective harvest special reg areas.

I don't think anyone missed it. I think many are disagreeing with you.

I think it's safe to say that average deep hooking rates for bait is higher than for fly or spinner. But that's an average. An angler trying to practice C&R will have a much lower deep hooking rate than one planning to harvest. And in many cases, it can be as low as fly and spinner fishermen.

Regulations should be as restrictive as necessary to ensure a good fishery. But NOT MORE RESTRICTIVE THAN NECESSARY. There is no question whatsoever that all-tackle (meaning bait allowed) C&R regulations result in FAR less mortality, both intentional and incidental, than general regulations. So if all tackle C&R is all that is necessary to produce a good fishery, then that should be the regulation.

On the other hand, if pressure is so high that all tackle C&R isn't sufficient to maintain a good fishery, then yes, it is fine to restrict further and go to ALO. But you don't take that step unless it's actually necessary. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

For instance, Penns Creek. It has a significant section that is all-tackle special regs (bait is allowed), and a significant section that is artificial lures only. Now, I like the ALO water better, but mostly because I like the water and atmosphere better. I don't pretend that outlawing bait in the other special reg section would improve it by any meaningful margin. And there isn't really a push for that. So obviously baitfishing DOES have a place in regulated C&R or selective harvest reg areas.

Or Spring Creek. The whole thing is C&R all tackle, meaning bait allowed. That stream has so many fish that I almost wish there was MORE mortality so that size would improve a little, lol. Not very many would say it's necessary to exclude bait here.

 

[NewSal]

Zak wrote:
"And to say that you should end your spinner drift after it gets to your position and not let it continue past you downstream and swing would be ridiculous. I don't know if what I said is being confused with actually casting downstream or what, but to not let your spinner go past your location after being casted upstream and letting it go downstream and swing across is something I've never seen in my life."


This is exactly what Im suggesting....but defintiely not insisting on my friend. Reeling the spinner straight back to your rod tip with no swing at all, and move swiftly from spot to spot, will result in more fish caught. If you haven't tried it then I would suggested you at least give it a good shot. Swinging the spinner downstream of you suggests that you're working fish that are facing in your direction thus some fish may see you first. That doesn't mean that you dont catch plenty of fish and that it isn't effective. Again, swing away, I dont care. All I'm saying is to be open minded about other approaches if you want to reduce your already small hooking mortality right and increase the number of trout that you catch. It's an effective and very safe approach to the already safe hobby of spinner fishing. I may also be a crazy person.....;-)

Apologies for taking this debate in another direction. This wasn't meant to be a spinner tactic debate haha.


All your doing by reeling it in short is eliminating the chance to hook up on the swing, and that's it. Literally saving less then two seconds of time, by letting it go past you and swing your just opening up one more opportunity for a fish, but you do yours ill do mine, I don't even spinner fish anymore, but interesting conversation.

 

[pete41]

40 years as a devoted trout nut--30 in Montana --I would say the one true " HOT SPOT" in spinner or streamer fishing is the point where the fly or lure slows,swings and starts to rise a little.
but and this a huge butt,thats assuming we are targeting larger than dry fly fish,little guys are a nuisance and experienced enough to present the fly or spinner where you suspect is an ambush point.
Stockies and food size for the ones you are after will of course be hanging out in the less desirable holds..
So maybe a lot of the differences we are having is an apples and oranges thing--lol

 

[pcray1231]

All your doing by reeling it in short is eliminating the chance to hook up on the swing, and that's it. Literally saving less then two seconds of time, by letting it go past you and swing your just opening up one more opportunity for a fish

Think you will find, a lot of these spinner fishermen, especially for wild trout, will cast DIRECTLY upstream, and reel it back to themselves faster than the current. Very, very fast retrieves, to the point of getting picky about the gear ratios on the high end spinning reels they buy.

 

[Hook_Jaw]

I know from watching some older generation guys that are minnow fisherman and being a minnow fisherman when I was young and now a die hard streamer junkie that you would cast directly up stream jerk the minnow quick with the rod tip low and just reel in the slack and jerk again alot of time would get it right at the swing but always thought and learned that most trout like to attack when it's coming downstream hit it in the head to stun or kill it.

 

[Dale49]

Pat suggested: "I suspect deep hooking rates would more than double if they used, say, nymphs from size 16-24. It's still double a low number, so rates would be low."

I fish small nymphs, midge pupas and caddis pupa in hook size 20-28 (below surface) and based on my experience and just my experience, I rarely deep hook a trout. Now I don't keep any numbers, but I would questimate maybe 1 on 200 that I bring to hand is hooked deep (not talking about the gills, but deep enough where trying to remove the hook would cause stress) and I immediate cut the tippet. I use both curved and regular hooks and I don't see a difference in where I hook a fish.

I will say the going to small curved hooks several years ago did improve my catch rate.

Dale

 

[foxtrapper1972]

I think Frank and Zak are on to something here with the spinner retrieve thing. I also think the size of the spinner and size of the hook are big factors as they have pointed out. Last evening when I killed the 3 fish I was using a much smaller spinner than I normally use because I ran out of the big ones. The wind was also having an effect on my retrieve as well. And these were freshly stocked trout which probably factors in. I fish my spinner in every direction. More with a downstream retrieve though. On the bigger streams swinging the spinner like a streamer or wet is effective. Enjoying this talk about spinning tactics and mortality. Think there is some value here.

 

[pete41]

I use to use 18,22,28 fur bodied nymphs when I was a paradise regular and I don't recall deep hooking any fish..
interesting note-as small as these nymphs were you had to adjust color to the season to get any action-

 

[foxtrapper1972]

I think a lot of guys who fish bait or lures don't carry forceps and that has to be a factor. That said, I would guess a fair amount of trout are killed by the forceps slipping and injuring the gills when removing a hook. I know I've done that a few times.

 

[pcray1231]

I suspect deep hooking rates would more than double if they used, say, nymphs from size 16-24. It's still double a low number, so rates would be low.

When I first started fly fishing, I would deep hook a fair number, especially when fishing midge larva. I suspect that I wasn't detecting takes so quickly. Also, even when fishing tiny dries like tricos, I'd deep hook a few. Mostly when fish were in that fast paced "porpoise" mode as opposed to coming up from the depths and turning back down with it.

We're still not talking "common", maybe 5% or something, and only in that specific situation. And I think it decreased as I got better, though it still happens from time to time when I'm not on top of my game. But coming from bait fishing where it probably had been well under 1% that I'd deep hook (I mostly worked minnies on minnie rigs, and occasionally tightlined eggs), I remember being alarmed by seeing it happen.

Of course, coming from a long line of somewhat hardcore bait guys, the prevailing wisdom said that fly fishing was bad because it killed more fish. Ironic, I know. I had mentally rejected that notion by that time, but seeing this was memorable for me because it made me question that rejection...

Where I stand now is that I just think there are a huge number of variables regarding deep hook %, with all tackle types. The highest by far is the bait fisherman who detects a bite and waits a while before setting the hook. But really, that's essentially TRYING to deep hook fish. If the bait fisherman is trying not to deep hook fish, well, depending on the other variables they can be every bit as successful, or more so, than a fly fisherman.

 

[RyanR]

That's okay Pcray, I'm content to just know that despite putting the qualifications of most and many in front your statements it doesn't make them true ;-) . Because I didn't really see MANY disagreeing with me, some yes but also at least just as many sharing the same opinion as I do.

Like I said though I don't care much anymore what the PFBC does or even what other anglers might think or do. I make my own decisions and form my own opinions based on what I see and have learned. It actually doesn't much bother me what the majority of trout anglers do, as most only fish for trout a few days each season but my opinion is set that baitfishing simply has no place in any special regulation areas. It's certainly not like batifishing has been greatly harmed or restricted on the majority of trout waters across the state so that opening up the small percentage of special reg waters to bait is necessary to somehow keep things fair or keep baitfishers from feeling excluded.