The Assault Continues...

[CRB]

The "study" is not a study until it isf finished and it looks to me the study aims (steering) for results. A true study does not release info until the study is complete. A dead trout is still a dead trout. PAFBC success is directly linked to dead fish.

 

[Mike]

Preliminary results and data are often released ahead of time. It is done frequently for the press and the public, both in wildlife and fisheries sciences, as well as other fields. Preliminary results are also often presented at scientific meetings, such as the Northeast Fish and Wildlife Conference, which is held annually. To say that results are preliminary or that a study is not complete represents appropriate disclosure.

 

[Hook_Jaw]

I have no problem with people bait fishing. It's been that way on Penn's trophy section since they started it and it's been great fishing all these years.

 

[martinlf]

"I have no problem with people bait fishing. It's been that way on Penn's trophy section since they started it and it's been great fishing all these years."

Penns is truly an exceptional big stream fishery that easily supports all kinds of tackle and styles of fishing. But small trophy sections on little streams such as the Saucon, with a very limited number of deep holes that can easily be targeted by bait fishermen and pretty much cleaned out, can suffer a lot of damage to the population if bait fishing is allowed there. Please see the bait fishing in the Saucon trophy water thread in this forum. Also note that the Fish Commission is considering stocking rainbows over the wild browns in that short trophy section and opening a hatchery there as well. The triple punch could degrade the fishery significantly.

 

[Zak]

I took 2 eleven year old girls out for the youth opener a few weeks back. One had a little fishing experience and the other next to none. Between them they caught 56 trout, almost all entirely on Power Bait with very little assistance by me (way too young and lacking in skill to be trying fly fishing yet). 2 trout were hooked deeply enough that I needed to snip the hook to release them. That's it. 2 of 56. I am really REALLY skeptical of a 20-40% moretality right as one poster references. It's actually a little absurd. While I dont support the use of bait in areas that currently dont allow it I do think that we, as a whole, worry about it WAAAAAY more then it's actually a real issue. Lack of angling skill, no matter what your offering, is going to kill a lot of trout. And what do unskilled trout anglers use 99% of the time???? Bait... How many new fisherman have you ever met going straight to fly fishing. I've never met a single one. Nearly every fly angle came from another humble beginning. Education and experience are the key to not killing trout.

 

[Nymph-wristed]

FrankTroutAngler wrote:
From my brother Mark -

Chaz - I know that this goes against your beliefs, but here are the facts ...

An extensive angler survey was done by the PFBC and the Spring Creek Chapter of Trout Unlimited in 2014. Over 500 volunteer hours were involved. It found the Centre County's Spring Creek has one of the highest angler uses in the state (probably the highest). As you know the stream has All-Tackle Catch & Release regulations - bait and lure fishing is allowed. Spring Creek also supports one of the highest wild trout biomasses in PA - maybe the highest overall.

In my opinion, we should never make laws or regulations based on what "poachers" might do. A lawbreaker is a lawbreaker - if someone is going to break the law by killing trout in a C&R area, do you think that keeping it FFO will stop them from breaking the law?

And ... thanks for recognizing the importance of Mark Jackson's final comments.

I am glad you weighed in, Frank. I have been following your posts for years. I too fish with the spinning rod sometimes. I am not sure all fly fishermen are aware that there is a community of spinner fishermen who "tie" their own and frequent the same remote Class A streams (and have the same respect for the resource). Oh, and I agree: poachers gonna poach, and you can't legislate based on the bad eggs. My buddy recently witnessed guys forming Powerbait into trout magnet shaped worms so they looked like soft plastic...

Speaking of trout magnets and jigs. Any estimate on mortality rates there? If I fish a jig, even barbless, I see that as one hook in the top jaw and a quick release. And I don't tie a dropper to a jig, so not a chance of hooking a wild brown in the fin or eyeball with the dropper fly either...

Can't we all just get along???

 

[troutbert]

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
I have no issues with more Catch and Release All Tackle Sections.

Agreed. And more All Tackle DH areas.

If they do this by adding new regs areas, adding more stream mileage under low/no/delayed harvest.

If the proposal is simply to add a new user group to already over-crowded, limited mileage special regs areas, then there is no incentive for current users of these regs areas to support it.

Loss: More crowded.

Gain: None

Why would anyone expect current users to support that?

It's obvious that if you make a proposal to a group which offers only losses, and no gains, they will not support it.

But if you offer some benefit, i.e. greatly increased mileage of low/no, delayed harvest areas, then you are likely to get far more support from current users of the regs areas.

 

[FrankTroutAngler]

troutbert wrote:

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
I have no issues with more Catch and Release All Tackle Sections.

Agreed. And more All Tackle DH areas.

If they do this by adding new regs areas, adding more stream mileage under low/no/delayed harvest.

If the proposal is simply to add a new user group to already over-crowded, limited mileage special regs areas, then there is no incentive for current users of these regs areas to support it.

Loss: More crowded.

Gain: None

Why would anyone expect current users to support that?

It's obvious that if you make a proposal to a group which offers only losses, and no gains, they will not support it.

But if you offer some benefit, i.e. greatly increased mileage of low/no, delayed harvest areas, then you are likely to get far more support from current users of the regs areas.

troutbert,

Given the fact that most fly fishermen began as bait anglers in their youth, picture this:

It's one hour before dark in late May and you are casting a #16 sulphur to wild brown trout rising between clumps of watercress on the Heritage section of the Letort. A 19-year old impressionable bait angler eases his SUV into a pull-off beside your veheicle and walks over to the bridge to see a stream that has just been opened to bait fishing. He's never seen watercress before or the light-colored mayflies that dance in the meadow before him.

He looks upstream and sees you eloquently casting the fly rod that has become an extension of your arm. He watches as you catch and release one nice trout after another and thinks to himself, "Wow, that sure looks like a fun way to fish!"


He watches you until darkness falls, intrigued by this new way of fishing. When you arrive back at your vehicle he inquires about your evening. You excitedly talk to him about fly fishing and he is left with a sense of awe.

The next day, as he thumbs through the latest edition of a Cabela's fishing catalog, he see a fly rod and proceeds to take the plunge and puts in an order. As he awaits his order he dreams about becoming a fly fisherman.

The gain: One potential new steward of wild trout and the streams they inhabit.

 

[KenU]

OK, here again is my two cents worth: I strongly believe that bait fishing, except under very controlled conditions, has a significantly higher accidental kill rate than flies or spinners. I grew up fishing for native brookies using bait. And I killed a lot of fish that way. Studies have shown that trout hooked deep in the tongue, throat or anywhere in the gills is almost surely a dead fish. Mortality can be reduced by cutting the line, but neophyte anglers don't usually care. They want to get their hook back.

By the way, there is probably a way to get the mortality rate down with bait. Use circle hooks. Time is money to commercial fishermen. They can't be bothered carefully removing deeply hooked fish or cutting the line and tying on another hook. Circle hooks typically slide up and lodge in the corner of the mouth. They are easily removed (especially if de-barbed) and much less lethal than j-hooks. I do not understand why this is not considered where bait is allowed in a streams where a high percentage of the trout caught will be released. That would be just about any brook trout stream.

 

[franklin]

KenU wrote:
OK, here again is my two cents worth: I strongly believe that bait fishing, except under very controlled conditions, has a significantly higher accidental kill rate than flies or spinners. I grew up fishing for native brookies using bait. And I killed a lot of fish that way. Studies have shown that trout hooked deep in the tongue, throat or anywhere in the gills is almost surely a dead fish. Mortality can be reduced by cutting the line, but neophyte anglers don't usually care. They want to get their hook back.

By the way, there is probably a way to get the mortality rate down with bait. Use circle hooks. Time is money to commercial fishermen. They can't be bothered carefully removing deeply hooked fish or cutting the line and tying on another hook. Circle hooks typically slide up and lodge in the corner of the mouth. They are easily removed (especially if de-barbed) and much less lethal than j-hooks. I do not understand why this is not considered where bait is allowed in a streams where a high percentage of the trout caught will be released. That would be just about any brook trout stream.

Mirrors my own experience as a bait fisherman. And I often practiced "tight line" techniques with bait.

As to circle hooks; I use them a significant amount of time when bass fishing and they tremendously improve suitability. I haven't tried them in small sizes for trout. But I'd be interested in see the idea explored.

 

[franklin]

FrankTroutAngler wrote:

troutbert wrote:

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
I have no issues with more Catch and Release All Tackle Sections.

Agreed. And more All Tackle DH areas.

If they do this by adding new regs areas, adding more stream mileage under low/no/delayed harvest.

If the proposal is simply to add a new user group to already over-crowded, limited mileage special regs areas, then there is no incentive for current users of these regs areas to support it.

Loss: More crowded.

Gain: None

Why would anyone expect current users to support that?

It's obvious that if you make a proposal to a group which offers only losses, and no gains, they will not support it.

But if you offer some benefit, i.e. greatly increased mileage of low/no, delayed harvest areas, then you are likely to get far more support from current users of the regs areas.

troutbert,

Given the fact that most fly fishermen began as bait anglers in their youth, picture this:

It's one hour before dark in late May and you are casting a #16 sulphur to wild brown trout rising between clumps of watercress on the Heritage section of the Letort. A 19-year old impressionable bait angler eases his SUV into a pull-off beside your veheicle and walks over to the bridge to see a stream that has just been opened to bait fishing. He's never seen watercress before or the light-colored mayflies that dance in the meadow before him.

He looks upstream and sees you eloquently casting the fly rod that has become an extension of your arm. He watches as you catch and release one nice trout after another and thinks to himself, "Wow, that sure looks like a fun way to fish!"


He watches you until darkness falls, intrigued by this new way of fishing. When you arrive back at your vehicle he inquires about your evening. You excitedly talk to him about fly fishing and he is left with a sense of awe.

The next day, as he thumbs through the latest edition of a Cabela's fishing catalog, he see a fly rod and proceeds to take the plunge and puts in an order. As he awaits his order he dreams about becoming a fly fisherman.

The gain: One potential new steward of wild trout and the streams they inhabit.

That really shouldn't be the basis for determining which type of fishing is practiced where. It should be done on the basis of the impact on the ability of the stream to sustain or improve numbers of wild fish.

 

[Nymph-wristed]

Here’s an analogy I come back to from time to time. It’s based on a real experience. As a 47 year old college administrator who works primarily with freshmen, I have had male students roasted by (usually young) female faculty for their uninformed, ignorant misogyny and/or sexism. But is it fair to demonize an 18 year, working class kid because he doesn’t yet have an informed sexual politics or wasn’t aware that his paper was revealing him as a woman hater? Isn’t an 18 year still in his formative years and could still learn about equality from a strong, mature woman? Do we really expect the average LAX bro to show up as a freshman and be a feminist? If someone is new to fishing and chucks Powerbait on a bobber is treating him like the enemy going to get him to respect your point of view and the resource? Do you make future fly fishermen by making everyone think the fly fishermen are intolerant?

A kid who was (is) sick with it the way I was, not just a weekend warrior or truck chaser, is the future of the sport whether his fishes responsible with bait or flies. He's not assaulting you...

 

[RyanR]

double00 wrote:
..on special regulations that exclude the use of bait. It seems that it has become a regular occurance every few years for someone, from some quarter or another, take up the cause of opening up the tiny fraction of special regulation stream miles out there to the use of bait. (As is the case currently with the Saucon Creek Special regs area controversy.)

Check out this article:

http://www.centredaily.com/sports/outdoors/article69687357.html

Note the final sentence:
“This study and other recent research demonstrates that there is no scientific basis for excluding any segment of the angling public from specially-regulated trout water."

Can this article be the opening shots of the next round statewide?

No one with a fishing license and trout stamp is excluded from any special regulations area, that's such a BS excuse and downright lie. That said, I'm quickly getting to the point I could almost care less what the PFBC does anymore.

The most common form of baitfishing I see in PA is putting a worm, minnow or powerbait on a hook and a good-sized sinker, casting it out and letting it sit while the angler sets the pole down in the crook of a stick and then sits on the bank waiting for a fish to eat the bait. So-called tightline fishing is probably the least employed (though most effective) tactic of PA bait fishermen.

I have no issue with baitfishing if we're creeling the trout but it has no place in any tpye of regualted C&R or selective harvest special reg areas.

 

[FrankTroutAngler]

franklin wrote:

"That really shouldn't be the basis for determining which type of fishing is practiced where. It should be done on the basis of the impact on the ability of the stream to sustain or improve numbers of wild fish."

FrankTroutAngler's response:

I never said it should be.

 

[FrankTroutAngler]

RyanR wrote:

"No one with a fishing license and trout stamp is excluded from any special regulations area, that's such a BS excuse and downright lie."

FrankTroutAngler's response:

Technically you are correct, but in reality I think you are incorrect.

Hear me out:

I don't know you, but for sake of argument let's say that you, like many of the fly fishers on this website, are a diehard fly fisherman. You'd rather catch one trout on a dry fly than a hundred on bait. In fact, bait fishing doesn't interest you in the slightest bit. It's something you grew out of long ago.

You live along a Class A wild trout stream that has ten miles of FFO water for you to enjoy. In fact, you built your home here so that you could enjoy flyfishing for the rest of your life.

Along comes the PFBC and they decide to change the regulations on the ten miles of stream to BFO (Bait Fishing Only).

Are you telling me that you wouldn't feel excluded? Remember, you can always fish bait there.

 

[martinlf]

Frank, I appreciate your desire to get people to see the other side, and agree that empathy is critical in these sorts of discussions, or you just have two sides talking at each other without listening or understanding that there is another side.

However, the hypothetical change you mention to that Class A stream, if typical procedures are followed, would be to make a few miles bait only. On most streams with special regulations most of the stream is open, with only a small section designated special regulations. That is one reason folks who favor special regs often feel under assault when a move is made to change the regs to allow bait. Just see the thread in this forum on bait fishing in the Saucon for an example. As someone said above, I have no problem with adding All Tackle sections to streams, but I'd hate to see areas where wild trout are at risk opened to stocking, bait fishing, and putting in a hatchery, all of which is being considered on the Saucon. And at the risk of saying this one time too many, I'd implore anyone who agrees with me to respectfully write the Fish Commission to say so, without trashing anyone or any approach. I don't disdain bait anglers or spin fishers. In fact I fish with bait at times and use spin gear, but when regulations create a unique wild fishery and protect it, they should be left alone.

 

[foxtrapper1972]

I wouldn't change a thing. The regs as they are seem fair and provide plenty of opportunity for every kind of fisherperson. We are doing something right and why mess with it.

Now I must say that I really don't understand these mortality studies. Bait and Rapala type lures and yes even spinners kill more fish than flyfishing. For example....I went out tonight on a stocked stream and caught 7 on a Panther Martin spinner. 3 of them had the treble hooks way down deep and started bleeding heavily when I unhooked them. 3 of the 7 went on the stringer. Some may use a larger spinner etc. or have different methods of bait fishing but let's not kid ourselves about bait and lures vs flyfishing. Anyone with any amount of time fishing both ways knows the difference. I can't remember the last time I killed a fish when using flies....It has happened but very seldom.

 

[Zak]

I've got lots of time fishing both ways and completely disagree with you. A properly fished spinner will kill more fish then a fly but it's not even a number worth considering in my significant experience. If you're deep hooking 30+% of your trout caught on spinner, respectfully, you're just not very good at it and should probably stick to fly-fishing. I don't mean that as a personal attack at all. Just that that example isn't very realistic.

Again, I don't support any change to special regs....not added bait...not even adding sections. No change at all. But the fear mongering in this thread is over the top. To be honest, the fishing is better on AT streams then it is on special regs in a lot of cases. Bait isn't the factor most think it is.

 

[moon1284]

I'm fine with guys spin fishing with bait. I've been writing my senator to outlaw centerpinning and make it punishable by jail for years. Spin fisherman are our friends, it's the pinners who are the enemy.

 

[LongLineRelease]

After reading the article in the original post, I believe the study is fundamentally flawed and provides questionable data. As mentioned in other posts, it is the intention of the anglers in the tournament to catch and deliver their fish alive and well in order to qualify for a cash prize. Therefore, the anglers in the tournament have significant motivation to land, unhook, and handle their fish with the most extreme care to prevent them from dying prior to having them checked. This is not reflective of the type of handling many bait anglers would subject the fish to if they were not motivated to keep the fish alive for cash gain. For the study to be accurate it would need to reflect fish handling and release conditions from a sampling of the entire Pennsylvania bait fishing population and not the tournament discussed in the article.

Now, moving away from hard data to anecdotal observation: if one wants to observe the effects of C&R bait fishing, one only need to visit one of the several lakes in the state that are open in the preseason to all tackle C&R. Take a look around the periphery of the lake and take note of all the dead trout floating, many with the guts pulled out through their mouth. Then take a look at the landing and release techniques being used by the anglers around the lake.