The Assault Continues...

With some further thought on this subject, the lakes that are open in the pre-season for all tackle C&R may be a good location to conduct a mortality study. The number of trout stocked in the lake would be known. A study could be conducted where the number of dead trout on the lake surface would be counted and collected on a daily basis. Being a more or less closed system, it could be assume the majority of live and dead trout would remain in the lake. The data would only be valid though if a method was available to reliably determine if the trout died of hooking mortality.
 
Zak says--- "A properly fished spinner will kill more fish then a fly but it's not even a number worth considering in my significant experience. If you're deep hooking 30+% of your trout caught on spinner, respectfully, you're just not very good at it and should probably stick to fly-fishing."
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Please explain the proper method to fish a spinner. And could you explain how I am improperly fishing a spinner?
 
1. When bait fishing, you are more likely to deep hook fish.

2. When spin fishing using lures with barbed treble hooks, removal of the hook is more difficult at times.

3. Deep hooking, increased handling and keeping a fish out of the water longer causes a higher rate of fish mortality.

Whether the increased mortality is significant and is acceptable is up to the angler.






 
Hey Foxtrapper. I'll start with the 2nd part of your question. Not knowing how you're spinner fishing I can't really comment on if it's 'proper' or not. Of course there are many ways to present a spinner to a trout effectively but the only way to ensure a low hooking mortality rate is to present the spinner directly upstream and reel down with the current. I dont really have a scientific expalination as to why less fish get hooked deeply....they just do :) Also, the use of a size 10 treble or larger will greatly reduce the risk of a deep hook. Most production spinners are size 12-14 trebles which are easily taken deeply. When combined with allowing the spinner to drag across the current downstream, it's a bad recipe for the trout. If possible swap them out for a 10 and you'll notice a BIG difference without missing any trout catching opportunities. Of course you may know all this and if so I apologize. It's entirely possible that you just have bad day hooking trout deeply. It happens no matter what the offering.

Even a spinner presented in a less than ideal manner doesn't concern me. Again, I think we are way overstating the abilities of a bait or spinner fisherman that is hooking and killing a lot of trout. Those types are very ineffective at catching trout. Wild trout aren't dumb and a guy with a big sinker and a night crawlers isn't catching a snag on most SR areas let alone 'cleaning out a pool' lol. You need to have a little skill and know how and those guys, fly, spinner, or bait, are killing way fewer trout than the guy sitting there in a lawn chair hoping for a 'chance'. Not arguing the spinners and bait kill more, just stating that its inconsequential.
 
1. Depends on the angler. This is one I dispute somewhat. I don't dispute that a bait angler CAN have a significant number of deep hooks. But they don't have to, it's really up to them. When I switched to fly fishing, I'd say my personal deep hooking % went up, not down. And my bait fishing friends absolutely lambast me for using flies because they think it kills more fish. This thing works both ways. Many on the other side look at US as the fish killers.

I saw it as a result of using small flies and not initially being skilled at detecting strikes quickly. A trout can inhale a size 24 midge larva pretty quickly, without you ever knowing. When bait fishing, workin a minnie or drifting an egg on a size 10 hook with a tight line, you felt the take immediately. And so long as you set the hook immediately, deep hooking is exceedingly rare. More rare than us fly guys fishing bobbers.

But there are those who feel that if they strike right away they miss too many fish for their liking. So to improve their hooking %, after feeling the take they let the fish take it a while, leading to better hooking %. Unfortunately, it works, as you reliably hook them in the throat.

This group, though, are generally harvest oriented, i.e. they don't care about mortality because they aren't practicing C&R. C&R regs in general tends to self select them out of the angler pool more often than not. Or it could be the same people, who simply change their practices when harvesting vs. C&R. And I suspect that's why the PFBC's study showed what it did. It was a C&R rodeo, where contestants were punished for mortality. So every fishermen there was consciously attempting to prevent mortality. And they succeeded. I'm not surprised.

So I think you have 2 groups of bait guys. 1 group where the deep hook % is very low, maybe lower than us. And another group where it's extremely high. And yes, if you average it out, the middle is still pretty high. But that average doesn't speak for everyone, all the time.
 
And as for afishinado's #2. I don't know how much barbed trebles increase mortality. But I know lots of spinner guys that use single hooks on their homemade spinners. I also know plenty of streamer guys who throw a treble on their triple articulated streamers. And even quite a few guys with spinning rods who actually fish streamers, rather than spinners.

All are exceptions, but it drives home the point that fly gear vs. spin gear doesn't really capture this problem, and nor does artificial vs. natural bait. That said, if this is a demonstratable problem, I have absolutely zero issue with a regulation stating single hooks only.
 
Zak wrote:
Hey Foxtrapper. I'll start with the 2nd part of your question. Not knowing how you're spinner fishing I can't really comment on if it's 'proper' or not. Of course there are many ways to present a spinner to a trout effectively but the only way to ensure a low hooking mortality rate is to present the spinner directly upstream and reel down with the current. I dont really have a scientific expalination as to why less fish get hooked deeply....they just do :) Also, the use of a size 10 treble or larger will greatly reduce the risk of a deep hook. Most production spinners are size 12-14 trebles which are easily taken deeply. When combined with allowing the spinner to drag across the current downstream, it's a bad recipe for the trout. If possible swap them out for a 10 and you'll notice a BIG difference without missing any trout catching opportunities. Of course you may know all this and if so I apologize. It's entirely possible that you just have bad day hooking trout deeply. It happens no matter what the offering.

Even a spinner presented in a less than ideal manner doesn't concern me. Again, I think we are way overstating the abilities of a bait or spinner fisherman that is hooking and killing a lot of trout. Those types are very ineffective at catching trout. Wild trout aren't dumb and a guy with a big sinker and a night crawlers isn't catching a snag on most SR areas let alone 'cleaning out a pool' lol. You need to have a little skill and know how and those guys, fly, spinner, or bait, are killing way fewer trout than the guy sitting there in a lawn chair hoping for a 'chance'. Not arguing the spinners and bait kill more, just stating that its inconsequential.
Click to expand...


Seriously dude? "When combined with allowing the spinner to drag across the current downstream, it's a bad recipe for trout"..

Your telling me that one of the most important effective spinning techniques .. Swinging spinners is a bad recipe? I don't know what you've been doing but that's how I've caught a very large majority of fish when using spinning gear.. and I promise you almost never did I get a deep hook set with spinners, so little times I can't even remember. Tight lining wax worms? Yeah once in a while you get a deep set.. Swinging spinners? Almost never
 
Salvelinusfontinali wrote:

Seriously dude? "When combined with allowing the spinner to drag across the current downstream, it's a bad recipe for trout"..

Your telling me that one of the most important effective spinning techniques .. Swinging spinners is a bad recipe? I don't know what you've been doing but that's how I've caught a very large majority of fish when using spinning gear.. and I promise you almost never did I get a deep hook set with spinners, so little times I can't even remember. Tight lining wax worms? Yeah once in a while you get a deep set.. Swinging spinners? Almost never
Click to expand...

As someone who has caught more than a few trout on spinners, I agree 100% with Zak’s observation that more trout will take a spinner deeply, thus increasing hooking mortality, if a spinner is fished downstream or swung downstream. I believe the reason for this is that the spinner is travelling at a much slower speed, which gives the trout a much better opportunity to completely engulf the spinner.

By the way, fishing a spinner downstream is a relatively ineffective method anyway. Under normal stream conditions I suspect most wild trout would be spooked from seeing the angler and long gone before the spinner fisherman’s spinner even hits the water. And the angler wouldn’t even know it.
 
pcray1231 wrote:

"And I suspect that's why the PFBC's study showed what it did."

FrankTroutAngler's response:

As noted in the original article and noted by "Mike" earlier in this thread, the PFBC was not involved with this study.
 

As someone who has caught more than a few trout on spinners, I agree 100% with Zak’s observation that more trout will take a spinner deeply, thus increasing hooking mortality, if a spinner is fished downstream or swung downstream. I believe the reason for this is that the spinner is travelling at a much slower speed, which gives the trout a much better opportunity to completely engulf the spinner.

By the way, fishing a spinner downstream is a relatively ineffective method anyway. Under normal stream conditions I suspect most wild trout would be spooked from seeing the angler and long gone before the spinner fisherman’s spinner even hits the water. And the angler wouldn’t even know it.


Yeah your right, I guess the past 15 years of successful spinner fishing I don't know anything.

No one casts a spinner directly downstream so I don't know what that's about.

Not going to get into my spinner fishing but just to clarify ...

You cast a spinner upstream, fish it so it flows downstream, then at the end of the presentation it will swing across the current downstream from you.. just like fishing wet flys.

If your not fishing this way then idk what the hell is going on. Trust me when I say that Ive caught a ton of fish on the swing, and I hardly remember ever getting deep set hooks.

If there is a high mortality rate and a lot of deep set hooks doing it this way it sure as hell didn't effect me.
 
The lake anecdote does not fit the situation because each Pa study shows that stocked trout anglers who fish in lakes and streams are largely separate groups of anglers with some, but very little, overlap. Bait angling techniques in lakes are a minor part of the bait techniques that are used in most stream fishing, particularly in typical stream habitats that would be considered for special regs.




 
Salvelinusfontinali, Thank you for helping to prove the point that I'm trying to make this whole time. Doesn't matter how you fish a spinner....the hooking mortality if low...VERY LOW. Not even worth discussing. I feel the same about the great bait debate too.
But please dont be so defensive. How a person choses to fish a spinner is entirely up to them. All I was saying is that the most effective way, and safest way to fish a spinner is directly upstream. Nothing more nothing less. I am very glad to hear that you enjoy the downstream approach and are very effective at it. Enjoyment of the sport is what really matters.

My posts were never meant to belittle another anglers approach (although I did have a little sacarsm in an earlier post......complete tongue and cheeck). To each their own.
 

"You cast a spinner upstream, fish it so it flows downstream, then at the end of the presentation it will swing across the current downstream from you.. just like fishing wet flys.

If your not fishing this way then idk what the hell is going on. Trust me when I say that Ive caught a ton of fish on the swing, and I hardly remember ever getting deep set hooks.

If there is a high mortality rate and a lot of deep set hooks doing it this way it sure as hell didn't effect me."

I fooled around with spinners just before I left Montana as I knew I was heading to Florida--
agree the above was the most effective way to fish spinners- when the spinner or fly starts to swing at the end it looks like a fleeing baitfish so understandable why that would be the most likely spot for a hit as baitfish don't normally swim calmly past big momma.
I would change to a single hook or cut off two trebles in order not to mess up fishes throat- if you change hooks you can put on a slightly bigger one-you will miss some but not the ones you are after.
Sad to say I came away feeling that spinners are just as effective if not more so then my favorite -streamers ---Surprised really how deadly they are--never tried them at night time.

 
The single hook vs treble hook studies have been done and published. In most cases the single hook caused deeper hooking and more expected mortality as a result. There is an emotional side to trebles that many anglers seem to have trouble getting past.

That said, there is one study that deals with or mentioned the size of the trebles involved relative to wild brook trout. I agree that a certain size treble is problematic for a certain sub-legal size range of Brook trout, but not with deep hooking. It is a release problem. That is easily corrected in one of two ways...by cutting off one of the three hooks on the treble, or as Zak said, going to a size 10. I would add that either a size 10 or 12 has done the trick for me if it was a wider gap hook, unlike many of the narrow gap stock hooks that arrive with the lure. The wide gapped hooks, also seem to produce less missed strikes.
 
Zak wrote:
Salvelinusfontinali, Thank you for helping to prove the point that I'm trying to make this whole time. Doesn't matter how you fish a spinner....the hooking mortality if low...VERY LOW. Not even worth discussing. I feel the same about the great bait debate too.
But please dont be so defensive. How a person choses to fish a spinner is entirely up to them. All I was saying is that the most effective way, and safest way to fish a spinner is directly upstream. Nothing more nothing less. I am very glad to hear that you enjoy the downstream approach and are very effective at it. Enjoyment of the sport is what really matters.

My posts were never meant to belittle another anglers approach (although I did have a little sacarsm in an earlier post......complete tongue and cheeck). To each their own.
Click to expand...

I agree the hooking mortality is very low. But I was just saying that during the swing there is no more or less deep set hooks.

I didn't fish them downstream though, I cast them upstream and at the end of the drift (downstream) they swing across the current, just like wet flys (swinging), this is a highly known tactic. And no more or less deadly to trout (unless deadly means catching more).

I don't know anyone that casts and fishes a downstream retrieve, I would imagine the mortality rate wouldn't change anyways.
 
Sal, I'd suggest listening to FrankTroutAngler on topics regarding fishing with spinners. Dude and his brother may have caught more trout than anyone, using any method, east of the Mississippi.
 
Regarding circle vs. J hooks, which was mentioned, and Mike gave me a PM regarding it. There's this study in Idaho:

https://collaboration.idfg.idaho.gov/FisheriesTechnicalReports/WildTroutSymposiumXIHigh2014%20Performance%20of%20Circle%20Hooks%20When%20Bait%20Fishing%20for%20Stream-Dwelling%20Trout.pdf

The results are compelling. I'd note a few obersvations about the study:

1. I'm a little uncomfortable with the "active vs. passive" figures. It's not really a criticism but a recognition that it's a variable that is very difficult to control, and it's not fully explained HOW it was controlled.

2. Note that the bait they used was crawlers. From personal experience, crawlers are among the worst baits in terms of deep hooking %. I'd guess deep hooking rates would be cut by more than half if they had used live minnies, or even reduced if they had used eggs, millworms, and the like. Fish just seem to try to swallow garden worms and crawlers more quickly than others.

3. For flies, they used dries from size 4 to 14. From personal experience, that's probably among the BEST flies to use in terms of deep hooking %. I suspect deep hooking rates would more than double if they used, say, nymphs from size 16-24. It's still double a low number, so rates would be low. But you deep hook with dries less than nymphs because you see the strike, even anticipate it sometimes, rather than relying on some indication to show in a slack line. Plus I think the fish going up, grabbing, and going down with the fly tends to lead to some hooksetting by the fish itself compared to say, a fish holding in current and inhaling a passing nymph. Plus, size. Bait, fly, or spinner, bigger offerings go deep less quickly. And for PA, frankly, a size 4 dry is ridiculous, as we consider 12 and 14's "large" for dry flies, and that's the smaller end of the study.

Anyway, those are little nitpicks and I don't think they really confound the conclusion that circle hooks improve deep hooking rates considerably for bait fishermen and may be something to consider in terms of potential regulations if you want to reduce mortality but not exclude the bait crowd. If they confound anything, it's any attempted comparison between bait and fly or active vs. passive. And more than confound, I think it more accurately clarifies that there's just a lot of variables in those comparisons, which makes it difficult to control and capture in any single study.
 
Here's a question that I would pose to all the advocates of all the groups who make the claim that they "never" or "rarely" kill fish.

How do you know this? Do you go back an hour, half a day, 24 hours, and a week after you caught each fish and verify it lived? Of course not. So how do you know what the morality rate of your caught fish is?

Debates like this rarely win any converts. I fish for trout using many methods and my own anecdotal experience from fishing those methods is that I don't deep hook many fish. The potential for mortality increases greatly with the subset of anglers who fish with the mentality of 'I got a bite. I'm going to wait half a minute for the fish to "take" the offering, then set the hook'. That kills fish for sure.

I think mortality of fish caught has more to do with the skill and awareness of the angler. Someone who is conscientious about how they fish is likely to kill less fish. And some might debate this but no angler who catches fish comes away with a zero mortality rate for the fish caught. Some of them do die, no matter what method is used.
 
FrankTroutAngler wrote:
RyanR wrote:

"No one with a fishing license and trout stamp is excluded from any special regulations area, that's such a BS excuse and downright lie."

FrankTroutAngler's response:

Technically you are correct, but in reality I think you are incorrect.

Hear me out:

I don't know you, but for sake of argument let's say that you, like many of the fly fishers on this website, are a diehard fly fisherman. You'd rather catch one trout on a dry fly than a hundred on bait. In fact, bait fishing doesn't interest you in the slightest bit. It's something you grew out of long ago.

You live along a Class A wild trout stream that has ten miles of FFO water for you to enjoy. In fact, you built your home here so that you could enjoy flyfishing for the rest of your life.

Along comes the PFBC and they decide to change the regulations on the ten miles of stream to BFO (Bait Fishing Only).

Are you telling me that you wouldn't feel excluded? Remember, you can always fish bait there.
Click to expand...

Frank, that's a moving little analogy and I'm sure a number of folks are probably thinking "you know, he's right." I'm not one of those people, I don't buy it and really I just don't think it has much to do with my point. Perhaps you missed, in the same post, where I said "I have no issue with baitfishing if we're creeling the trout but it has no place in any type of regulated C&R or selective harvest special reg areas."

I'm not a big proponent of widespread FFO areas though I do believe have a few of them in each region is positive thing for all trout anglers (they're pretty good places to learn as a beginner fly angler.) When it comes to special regs areas I mostly prefer ALO-type areas.


 
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