bigjohn58
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Totally agree with about 99% of what you said there!
Totally agree with about 99% of what you said there!
Chaz
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All Tackle on C & R stream will remove up to 40% of all trout due to incidental mortality.
Biggie
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My opinion is about the same as Chaz'. I'm sure there will be more litter if there are more bait fisherman.
bikerfish
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what is the percentage of regular stream areas to DHALO areas? around me, I bet it is around 1 percent. out of the 3 area streams, the DHALO areas total about 5 miles at most. plenty of other stream areas to harvest trout. I just think they see those sections that still hold trout DUE to the special regulations and want to get in there and harvest them sooner. then gee, there won't be any fish in them anymore.
most of these streams do fish well into summer and even hold fish over pretty well, so it's not like the fish are all dead by early june.
I say let em fish the rest of the stream sections that are open.
and as for those special interest groups? yeah, the TU chapters that do the work on those stream sections so that they DO hold trout longer and fish better throughout the year.
traditional anglers want to make a difference? start working on streams and conservation, not just writing letters to PFBC complaining you can't harvest any fish.
until I see proof that they are working to benefit fisheries, I'll conclude they are only interested in harvesting trout and nothing else. I'm not that familier with them, perhaps they do have stream projects they are working on, if so, good for them, if not, then why not?
most of these streams do fish well into summer and even hold fish over pretty well, so it's not like the fish are all dead by early june.
I say let em fish the rest of the stream sections that are open.
and as for those special interest groups? yeah, the TU chapters that do the work on those stream sections so that they DO hold trout longer and fish better throughout the year.
traditional anglers want to make a difference? start working on streams and conservation, not just writing letters to PFBC complaining you can't harvest any fish.
until I see proof that they are working to benefit fisheries, I'll conclude they are only interested in harvesting trout and nothing else. I'm not that familier with them, perhaps they do have stream projects they are working on, if so, good for them, if not, then why not?
LongWader
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Well put Pcray,
I knew someone would be able to clarify the situation more eloquently and yeah more regs. don't seem to help and if anything they seem to be doing the opposite which is part of my personal frustration with the situation.
My problem and not anyone else's.
You are right in that the more Avid fisherman are the biggest and best advocates for CR. It is a shame that in many cases the regulations do not accomplish their intended goals.
I knew someone would be able to clarify the situation more eloquently and yeah more regs. don't seem to help and if anything they seem to be doing the opposite which is part of my personal frustration with the situation.
My problem and not anyone else's.
You are right in that the more Avid fisherman are the biggest and best advocates for CR. It is a shame that in many cases the regulations do not accomplish their intended goals.
mike_richardson
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To say that T.A.P. does nothing for the fisheries is the most outlandish thing i have heard about the organization yet. Between our mass fish killing, writing letters to the commision, and managing our wax worm farm we also do the following and are affiliated with:
T.A.P. is affiliated with:
(SCRIP) Stony Creek River Improvement Project
West Branch of the Sesquehanna Rescue
Conemaugh Valley Conservancy
PLAY
Portage Coalition of Sportsman
PA Clean ways
We are working hand in hand with DEP to clean up a section of Trout Run in portage that will be installing settling ponds and wetlands that will be able to hold trout within 2 years. Work on this project has already started.
We are involved in all on going communications to try and clean up the Little Conemaugh and the Hughes borehole that wipes out that stream for miles.
T.A.P. also donates fish to the Portage Volunteer fire department to aid in their fund raising events for their fishing derby.
We have a co-op nursery that the Commission grants us around 7000 fingerlings to add to the streams of Cambria County. We have a free kids fishing derby and stock over a mile of stream and recieve a lot of donations so every kid will leave with a fishing rod, vest, gift certificate or savings bond.
All of the food, electricity, and upkeep of that nursery comes from our pocket and fund raising events. There are some grants that the commision offers our nursery but that alone is not enough.
Through our nursery we provide thousands of fishing opportunities for all anglers reguardless of tackle and stock better quality and more fish than the state in each of the streams in our area. We set up a kids only fishing section on Kane run also.
T.A.P. has also had a role in keeping the Reynoldville Hatchery open to add more fishing opportunities and keep people working.
We offer a youth field day in cooperation with a few other clubs to provide instructional activities to all aspects of the out doors and add a kids fishing derby at the end of the event.
I
Please look into the club more before making outlandish rumors. Thanks.
T.A.P. is affiliated with:
(SCRIP) Stony Creek River Improvement Project
West Branch of the Sesquehanna Rescue
Conemaugh Valley Conservancy
PLAY
Portage Coalition of Sportsman
PA Clean ways
We are working hand in hand with DEP to clean up a section of Trout Run in portage that will be installing settling ponds and wetlands that will be able to hold trout within 2 years. Work on this project has already started.
We are involved in all on going communications to try and clean up the Little Conemaugh and the Hughes borehole that wipes out that stream for miles.
T.A.P. also donates fish to the Portage Volunteer fire department to aid in their fund raising events for their fishing derby.
We have a co-op nursery that the Commission grants us around 7000 fingerlings to add to the streams of Cambria County. We have a free kids fishing derby and stock over a mile of stream and recieve a lot of donations so every kid will leave with a fishing rod, vest, gift certificate or savings bond.
All of the food, electricity, and upkeep of that nursery comes from our pocket and fund raising events. There are some grants that the commision offers our nursery but that alone is not enough.
Through our nursery we provide thousands of fishing opportunities for all anglers reguardless of tackle and stock better quality and more fish than the state in each of the streams in our area. We set up a kids only fishing section on Kane run also.
T.A.P. has also had a role in keeping the Reynoldville Hatchery open to add more fishing opportunities and keep people working.
We offer a youth field day in cooperation with a few other clubs to provide instructional activities to all aspects of the out doors and add a kids fishing derby at the end of the event.
I
Please look into the club more before making outlandish rumors. Thanks.
J
JeffK
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I did an Opening day anglers survey and half the bait guys were C&R. The old take a stringer of dead trout home to impress your friends mentality is going away IMHO. Many of the catch guys took a pair of trout for lunch and released the rest. Still some fish hogs out there, but they seem to be less and less of an issue over time. And what is wrong with an occassional meal of trout. I think C&R is getting to be a religion. At my Opening Day survey spot about 10% of the pre-season stocking was kept on Opening Day. There were plenty of fish stocked (well above the holding capacity IMHO) and it seemed to me that people could keep more without feeling guilty.
And I would say angling mortality is a function of experience regardless of tackle. The old timer bait guys get a trout off the hook pretty quickly; newbie fly guys squeeze the fish in the middle and rip out a chunk of jaw with the hook.
However, one thing I have seen is less of the better bait guys over time. it seems like when most people start catching trout on bait/lures regularly they are likely to switch to flies. Back in the 60's it seemed like there were more expert bait guys than fly fishermen. One of the funny things at my opening day spot was that a group of fly fishermen were fishing bait for old time's sake. They were the group doing the most poorly.
And I would say angling mortality is a function of experience regardless of tackle. The old timer bait guys get a trout off the hook pretty quickly; newbie fly guys squeeze the fish in the middle and rip out a chunk of jaw with the hook.
However, one thing I have seen is less of the better bait guys over time. it seems like when most people start catching trout on bait/lures regularly they are likely to switch to flies. Back in the 60's it seemed like there were more expert bait guys than fly fishermen. One of the funny things at my opening day spot was that a group of fly fishermen were fishing bait for old time's sake. They were the group doing the most poorly.
mike_richardson
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That is what i have found with myself as well Jeff. I had went bait fishing with my Uncle in return for him coming fly fishing with me. I lost more trout on bait than with a fly.
I rarely see guys keeping trout anymore to tell you the truth. I also feel that if these streams are open to bait i dont think that it will spark a huge interest or peak license sales. I may be wrong but it seems that a small percentage of these outlaw people make up the largest percentage of fish killed.
Even T.A.P. had a run in with poachers at our holding pond. We had found a few trot lines with a brick and a line set out with 10 or 12 hooks on it. These poachers taped the hook and smothered it with power bait so our big trout would not be killed by the hook. I am wondering if these people are greedy and want to stock a private pond. Out of 300 hold overs we were able to only stock 98 last year. That means 202 people went without the opportunity at a fish over 16" long. SAD!
After our fishing derby we had to throw out some parents and kids who were netting the fish and trying to keep about 20 in a cooler to stock in a pond. We did not want to contact the commission about this since they let the fish go and hoped that this would be enough of a lesson to them.
I just can't see what people can do with that many trout. I kept 5 trout last year and all five are still waiting to be cooked in their vaccum sealed bag. I typically dont keep any. I will be frying them up next weekend. I feel bad but will not let these fish go to waste. I just wonder how many end up tossed or donated to the "feed a raccoon foundation" a year.
I rarely see guys keeping trout anymore to tell you the truth. I also feel that if these streams are open to bait i dont think that it will spark a huge interest or peak license sales. I may be wrong but it seems that a small percentage of these outlaw people make up the largest percentage of fish killed.
Even T.A.P. had a run in with poachers at our holding pond. We had found a few trot lines with a brick and a line set out with 10 or 12 hooks on it. These poachers taped the hook and smothered it with power bait so our big trout would not be killed by the hook. I am wondering if these people are greedy and want to stock a private pond. Out of 300 hold overs we were able to only stock 98 last year. That means 202 people went without the opportunity at a fish over 16" long. SAD!
After our fishing derby we had to throw out some parents and kids who were netting the fish and trying to keep about 20 in a cooler to stock in a pond. We did not want to contact the commission about this since they let the fish go and hoped that this would be enough of a lesson to them.
I just can't see what people can do with that many trout. I kept 5 trout last year and all five are still waiting to be cooked in their vaccum sealed bag. I typically dont keep any. I will be frying them up next weekend. I feel bad but will not let these fish go to waste. I just wonder how many end up tossed or donated to the "feed a raccoon foundation" a year.
pcray1231
Well-known member
I think it's also very location specific.
I grew up fishing the NC and NW parts of the state. To be quite honest, fly fishermen were rare until you got as far east as the 1st Fork/Kettle/Pine drainages. You saw one here and there, but there was nowhere that they outnumbered bait fishermen.
The switch from bait to fly gear was not the typical path there. Bait fishermen simply got better and more experienced with time. And as a result, they were more likely to C&R, less likely to cause mortality, more likely to focus on wild trout, etc. The same things we associate with flyfishing. I spent a few 1st days in a row without seeing a single stocked trout put on a stringer, everyone was C&R.
Then I moved to State College and eventually SE PA. Fly fishing was MUCH more common than I was used to. And there weren't very many experienced bait fishermen, they merely switched to fly gear once they got to a certain point. And I did the same. So the less experienced and less interested made up a much higher % of the bait fishermen, and the more experienced type was rare.
I believe the negative stereotypes we associate with "bait fishing" aren't so much indicative of the tackle choice, they are indicative of level of experience and/or interest in trout fishing. In short, we hate beginners and those that aren't as into it as we are. Those who think that trout come from trucks, who think you should keep all the fish you catch, who are unconcerned about a fish's survival if they do release, etc. And to be fair, those things are damaging to fisheries. Of course, we can't eliminate opportunities for beginners, because some portion of those will eventually get into the sport and become the stewards of the waters that we want them ALL to be.
So what do you do? IMO, you protect the streams that need protecting. Those that are popular enough to be harmed, you limit harvest and mortality with regulation. But only to the degree necessary, as you want to leave as many open to the bait crowd as possible, and when you do have regulations, you make them as non-restrictive as you can. For instance, if you can get away with it without overly harming the fishery, AT C&R is better than ALO C&R is better than FFO. Thus, by making it a smaller step, you are inviting those beginners to grow as fishermen and conservationists.
At least that's my take. I do think TAP is probably misguided to an extent. But I also think some other organizations may be as well, and TAP is nothing more than a counter to that. With good intentions, our hero organizations push fly gear, FFO projects, and the like, forgetting that there still exists in many areas an experienced and overall good group of bait anglers. You can say TU welcomes bait and spin fishermen. And that's true. However, they certainly make no attempt to market to them. The calendar is full of fly fishing pictures, the gifts are fly gear, etc. When's the last time a sign up gift was a fancy spinning reel or a box of rooster tails in various sizes and colors? When's the last time in trout magazine there was a story about methods of working live minnows, or the ads included the newest and greatest mono line made by Berkely, Stren, or Silver Thread? When's the last time you saw a picture of a guy sitting at a desk, but instead of a vice and fly tying stuff, there was spinner making equipment? Or how about at the meetings, how many speakers concentrate on spin or bait fishing topics? You're kidding yourself if you think it's a welcoming environment for the more avid bait and spin fishing crowd.
I grew up fishing the NC and NW parts of the state. To be quite honest, fly fishermen were rare until you got as far east as the 1st Fork/Kettle/Pine drainages. You saw one here and there, but there was nowhere that they outnumbered bait fishermen.
The switch from bait to fly gear was not the typical path there. Bait fishermen simply got better and more experienced with time. And as a result, they were more likely to C&R, less likely to cause mortality, more likely to focus on wild trout, etc. The same things we associate with flyfishing. I spent a few 1st days in a row without seeing a single stocked trout put on a stringer, everyone was C&R.
Then I moved to State College and eventually SE PA. Fly fishing was MUCH more common than I was used to. And there weren't very many experienced bait fishermen, they merely switched to fly gear once they got to a certain point. And I did the same. So the less experienced and less interested made up a much higher % of the bait fishermen, and the more experienced type was rare.
I believe the negative stereotypes we associate with "bait fishing" aren't so much indicative of the tackle choice, they are indicative of level of experience and/or interest in trout fishing. In short, we hate beginners and those that aren't as into it as we are. Those who think that trout come from trucks, who think you should keep all the fish you catch, who are unconcerned about a fish's survival if they do release, etc. And to be fair, those things are damaging to fisheries. Of course, we can't eliminate opportunities for beginners, because some portion of those will eventually get into the sport and become the stewards of the waters that we want them ALL to be.
So what do you do? IMO, you protect the streams that need protecting. Those that are popular enough to be harmed, you limit harvest and mortality with regulation. But only to the degree necessary, as you want to leave as many open to the bait crowd as possible, and when you do have regulations, you make them as non-restrictive as you can. For instance, if you can get away with it without overly harming the fishery, AT C&R is better than ALO C&R is better than FFO. Thus, by making it a smaller step, you are inviting those beginners to grow as fishermen and conservationists.
At least that's my take. I do think TAP is probably misguided to an extent. But I also think some other organizations may be as well, and TAP is nothing more than a counter to that. With good intentions, our hero organizations push fly gear, FFO projects, and the like, forgetting that there still exists in many areas an experienced and overall good group of bait anglers. You can say TU welcomes bait and spin fishermen. And that's true. However, they certainly make no attempt to market to them. The calendar is full of fly fishing pictures, the gifts are fly gear, etc. When's the last time a sign up gift was a fancy spinning reel or a box of rooster tails in various sizes and colors? When's the last time in trout magazine there was a story about methods of working live minnows, or the ads included the newest and greatest mono line made by Berkely, Stren, or Silver Thread? When's the last time you saw a picture of a guy sitting at a desk, but instead of a vice and fly tying stuff, there was spinner making equipment? Or how about at the meetings, how many speakers concentrate on spin or bait fishing topics? You're kidding yourself if you think it's a welcoming environment for the more avid bait and spin fishing crowd.
S
Squaretail
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- Dec 29, 2006
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- 1,862
Opening bait to a delayed harvest is stupid. Cant harvest a dead trout no matter what the harvest date.
The bait guys simply look at the trout left in regs waters and want to go get them since they depleted the open waters. Just like I used to when I was one.
Clubs and kids rodeos ALWAYS ends up with the non-kids fishing for the trout. Usually the same day or the next. I never once had a problem getting a kid over catchable fish. Ever.
Yeah, "Its for the kids."
Doubt I'll be active in a club again.
How much do the regs really matter? No one to enforce them anyway. Somehow that excuse is acceptable for the PFBC.
The bait guys simply look at the trout left in regs waters and want to go get them since they depleted the open waters. Just like I used to when I was one.
Clubs and kids rodeos ALWAYS ends up with the non-kids fishing for the trout. Usually the same day or the next. I never once had a problem getting a kid over catchable fish. Ever.
Yeah, "Its for the kids."
Doubt I'll be active in a club again.
How much do the regs really matter? No one to enforce them anyway. Somehow that excuse is acceptable for the PFBC.
S
Squaretail
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Dang. Think I'm grumpy? 
JackM
Moderator
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I saw some guy fishing a DHALO with bait about the first couple years I took up fly fishing. I told him of the regs and warned him politely about possibly being fined. And wished him luck in not getting caught.
He said, he understood the regs "but it's funny that this place is the only place with any trout left."
I said, in my best Thorogood voice: "I know, now you funny too."
He said, he understood the regs "but it's funny that this place is the only place with any trout left."
I said, in my best Thorogood voice: "I know, now you funny too."
T
troutbert
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Are flyfishers non-traditional anglers?
Is someone fishing with spin gear and PowerBait a traditional angler?
You have to watch out for disingenuous uses of the language.
JackM
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Like "native" v. "wild," and "strike indicator" v. "bobber?"
bingsbaits
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"Home Waters" vs "Pay to Play"
mike_richardson
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easy jack dont call my indicator a bobber, i can take the razzing towards T.A.P. but those are fighting words
Good point pcray about T.U. I agree with you on that for sure. But I imagine that if they did a survey 75% of their members are fly fisherman. They would be dumb not to cater to the people that make up the largest percent of their member ships.
I do not discredit what they do for the fisheries and getting people involved. They do wonders for conservation and I applaud them for that but T.U. got big for a reason. I do not research them enough to give a whole hearted opinion on them however and will not bash on something i do not know enough about.
I don't know if they "lobby" may not be the correct term on this or things like that but to run a club you need funding. I imagine that get sizable "donations" for showing an orvis rod or okuma reel or something. T.A.P. has to get sponsers as well for different events so we are one in the same but on a smaller more local scale. I doubt that the club is funded on memberships alone.
Good point pcray about T.U. I agree with you on that for sure. But I imagine that if they did a survey 75% of their members are fly fisherman. They would be dumb not to cater to the people that make up the largest percent of their member ships.
I do not discredit what they do for the fisheries and getting people involved. They do wonders for conservation and I applaud them for that but T.U. got big for a reason. I do not research them enough to give a whole hearted opinion on them however and will not bash on something i do not know enough about.
I don't know if they "lobby" may not be the correct term on this or things like that but to run a club you need funding. I imagine that get sizable "donations" for showing an orvis rod or okuma reel or something. T.A.P. has to get sponsers as well for different events so we are one in the same but on a smaller more local scale. I doubt that the club is funded on memberships alone.
F
Fishidiot
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I certainly hope I didn't create the appearance of trying to be disingenuous as that wasn't my intent.
"Traditional" in this context is simply in keeping with the acronym "TAP" that is being used in this case. Is FFing "traditional?" Sure. So is bait fishing. If I referred to FFers as traditional it might be construed by a bait angler as disingenuous. And so it goes.
JackM
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Meat-lobbers is much more PC.
mike_richardson
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just as we are feather- flipping-bug-twirlers right :lol:
JackM
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I prefer the ole tweed and knickers stereotype, actually.
God bless the man or woman who fishes, whether with trotline or by "tickling."
God bless the man or woman who fishes, whether with trotline or by "tickling."
