Proposed DHALO regulations change

[WildTigerTrout]

The "Narrows" has no DHALO area. It has a portion that is under "Trophy Trout" regs and the rest is C&R.

 

[Foxgap239]

Isn't Fishing Creek C&R and then a Trophy section? Is there even a DH area on Fishing Creek?

 

[Paulson]

Hm, if the stretch I fish isn't busy enough now I'll have power bait and more anglers to contend with.

 

[WildTigerTrout]

Foxgap239 wrote:
Isn't Fishing Creek C&R and then a Trophy section? Is there even a DH area on Fishing Creek?

Foxgap, see my post above yours. Yes you are right there is not a DHALO area.

 

[mike_richardson]

Paulson

not to mention birds of prey having a field day with lower water conditions

 

[Foxgap239]

WildTigerTrout wrote:

Foxgap239 wrote:
Isn't Fishing Creek C&R and then a Trophy section? Is there even a DH area on Fishing Creek?

Foxgap, see my post above yours. Yes you are right there is not a DHALO area.

Is this a case of great minds think alike or do we both simply need to get lives! :-D

 

[pcray1231]

Mike, I'm generally on your side. I do think there's a time and a place for ALO. But it's only if necessary to protect the fishery, which isn't all that often, but there are cases.

Mostly, though, on our higher quality wild trout waters I love AT C&R or AT Trophy Trout regs. Doesn't exclude anyone, you can fish however you like to fish, you just can't keep em. And on the streams where it's implemented, it seems like it has done an admirable job of protecting trout populations.

 

[mike_richardson]

I am for these c&r sections as well.

I am not happy with some of the views that were portrayed about the club i belong to.-Most of the active members of the club might keep 20 trout between us yearly. To lable us and say that we only want to get at these fish to keep them is just plain wrong and not based on any truth.

We want people to be able to fish these stretches just to be able to fish and have an equal opportunity. I will not continue on this topic because this is a Fly Fishing forum. My views greatly vastly and i will not cause turmoil on this site. I will not continue to argue on this topic. I try to stay out of these debates on here and not broadcast my club. I am not a spammer or anything like tha but i want to be sure that rumors are not floating around and that the club is represented fairly. I apologize if anyone took offense to the posts i had made.

I don't think this will cause any large increase in license sales. Also what will the overall end result be. I don't see this being passed just by reading the resumes of the board of directors anyway.

If this meeting is open to the public I think we will be sending some guys down.

 

[LongWader]

I understand and appreciate both side of this argument and even though I am on the CR side of the argument at this point in my life.
I would think that it would make more sense to stock delayed harvest streams in the Fall and practice CR during the cool weather Fall and Winter Seasons. This would give the fish a chance to acclimate to the stream and where there is some summer survival protect the few brown trout that spawn in the fall. Then you could supliment the Fall stocking with a Spring stocking to maximize everyone's chances to catch and release trout multiple times during the cool weather period and harvest the trout during the traditional Spring Harvest Season/ Opening Day. This would maximize the value of the resource for all users groups while preserving the Traditional Spring Trout Harvest.
Though I could be wrong!
Some would argue that you would lose too many trout to mink and birds during the Winter especially in low water years.

 

[pcray1231]

LongWader, regarding the club, anyway, I don't think it's C&R vs. harvest. I think it's more tackle restrictions that the club is concerned about.

 

[Broad_Top]

My biggest complaint on the DHALO sections I fish is that they disallow treble hooks during the no-keep period, like Pat mentioned. I see so many grotesque torn-up mouths...kinda defeats the purpose of the 'release' part.

 

[LongWader]

So it is bait fishing that is really the issue it kind of seems like a non-issue if you are going to harvest fish IMHO.
I think we all know folks who can outfish any bait fisher with artificials if harvest was the real issue. You can cover a lot more water and fish more quickly fishing artificials in many situations. I know some nymph fisherman who can catch and release up to 80 fish a day. Not that I would want to stress that many fish, but it can be done.

If you really want to protect fish in Artificial only sections make them barbless hooks only. Trebles can do more damage. but it is barbed hooks that are the real problem because they can do more damage and it takes longer to facilitate a clean quick release.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

I see nothing wrong with the proposed changes. As a management tool, it is probably better.

I see nothing wrong also with the suggestion of removing some of the FFO areas. Ones like donegal should probably be DH anyways. Removing the letort, big spring, falling spring.......this would be a major mistake and a mockery to the unique historical place PA has in FF history.

Hey PFBC, while we are changing things around to better manage our fisheries, ready to reduce the creel limit on unstocked wild trout waters?

 

[pcray1231]

LongWader,

I have a long history of bait fishing. To be frank, there are many situations where you simply can't outfish the real thing. There are other situations where other methods are superior. If your goal is to simply be as successful as possible, there is a time and a place for just about everything.

I have reached the century mark a few times with bait, one of them on Spring Creek, and in all of those times, I can guarantee you I couldn't have come close to that number with flies, and nor could very many other people.

I'd also add that you can cover just as much ground and fish just as quickly with bait as with anything else. I used to fish live minnies a lot, and in style, it ain't much different than fishing spinners. You just get more second chances after misses, in exchange for having to carry minnies around.

And regarding mortality, it doesn't have to be much worse than artificials either. The thing is, is that it requires skill from the angler to prevent mortality. If you fish a tight line, and strike as soon as the fish bites, then mortality has to be dang near as low as it is with flies, and lower than treble hooked lures. But, the thing with bait is that the fish will hold onto it, and swallow it if given a chance. Just like with flies, some fishermen lack the skill to detect strikes immediately. And in other situations, the fisherman intentionally allows fish to chew on it for a few seconds to improve their hookup %. Not a problem if they're harvesting, but a big problem if they're C&R'ing. So you have some bait fishermen with near zero mortality, but some with very high mortality, and the "average" is of course higher because of the latter group.

I do think there have to be places around where the beginners can fish. To me, that's the role of stocked streams. It takes beginners, whether they be young or adult, and gives them places with easy fishing and a way to get into the sport without harming a wild fishery. That's how most of us start. And then there are streams that are more sensitive to angling pressure, and with wild fish, there's more to lose too. On those, you want to decrease the number of the unskilled group with high mortality rates.

The obvious way to do that is ALO. But I do have sympathy for the more skilled bait anglers who are being needlessly excluded in those situations. On one hand, they can always tie on an artificial and use the same rod and reel and fish it the same way, and be successful. On the other hand, all tackle regs like AT C&R and AT TT generally discourage the beginners and the meat hunters enough that ALO isn't really necessary.

 

[JackM]

Many thoughtful responses, the last number of which I couldn't read just yet. Nonetheless, I see an inconsitency in moving up the harvest period and the notion that the purpose of these "set-asides" is to maximize, not the harvest, but rather the recreation.

We know bait angling will kill more trout. We know the streams will be populated by a higher in ratio of anglers looking to harvest, even if the "gross" figure isn't considered statistically significant. Why move the date up to a point where the trout can be caught and successfully released (and I believe this is the case in a large percentage of DH waters) and caught again (isn't this the point?)?

Anyway, carry on.

 

[mike_richardson]

I am not too big on the move up date for harvest. I think that the June date is fine.

 

[McSneek]

I would like to think some "science" went into determining an appropriate harvest period for these DHALO sections. What changed to prompt the proposed earlier harvest date? Is there any data that indicates temperature-related mortality increases beginning around Memorial Day rather than mid-June? The fact that they want to move it to the Memorial day weekend (three days off for many) is just another sign they are bowing to pressure from the catch and keep/bait angler contingent and trying to come up with any way possible to generate license revenue. Still appears to be an attempt to market a third opening day to me.

As against this as I am, I can honestly say the only time I saw someone keeping trout from a delayed harvest stretch was when they were doing so illegally, outside of the harvest period.

I'm with Jack on this. The stocked fish are there for recreation, not necessarily consumption. I don't consider a fish that may die due to thermal stress in July or August rather than been "harvested" on Memorial Day to have been wasted.

 

[mike_richardson]

IF, for some reason unknown to you they made the Letort, Yellow Breeches, Spring Creek, Little J, Penns Creek, or Spruce Creek, Big Spring, Falling Spring a (BAIT FISHING only catch and release only section and excluded flies and other artificial lures) would you just pick up a spinning rod and throw on a wax worm?

Didn't think so. But you would have the CHOICE to give up your fly rod and put a worm or wax worm on right?

That is why the guys who dont use this form of tackle are mad. Reguardless of the 98% issue.

 

[McSneek]

mike_richardson wrote:
IF, for some reason unknown to you they made the Letort, Yellow Breeches, Spring Creek, Little J, Penns Creek, or Spruce Creek, Big Spring, Falling Spring a (BAIT FISHING only catch and release only section and excluded flies and other artificial lures) would you just pick up a spinning rod and throw on a wax worm?

Didn't think so. But you would have the CHOICE to give up your fly rod and put a worm or wax worm on right?

That is why the guys who dont use this form of tackle are mad. Reguardless of the 98% issue.

Nope - no intention of using bait anymore. Moved past that stage years ago. BUT - if I wanted to fish that section that badly and that was what was required I would have a CHOICE to make wouldn't I?

The reason for special regulations on those streams that you mention are well known to me and everyone else. BTW - most, if not all, of the streams on your list are already open to bait fishing for much of their length.

 

[McSneek]

mike_richardson wrote:
But you would have the CHOICE to give up your fly rod and put a worm or wax worm on right?

That is why the guys who dont use this form of tackle are mad. Reguardless of the 98% issue.

Explain further please. Do bait fishermen give up their CHOICE to use other forms of tackle the first time they impale that wax worm on a #10 Eagle Claw bait holder?