Private water

[troutbert]

silverfox wrote:

maxima12 wrote:

I have fished a lot of privite clubs when younger, being older and losing the ability to run, i fish them less often!

LOL!!! Best post ever.

Yep. Funny stuff from Maxi!!

I would have squirt coffee out my nose, if I had been drinking coffee.

 

[trout48]

We wont fish clubs but isn't Harmans basically the same and I love to go there. It is easy fishing for the wife who has a back injury and cant walk a stream with me. Either way we are paying. Also this is not to be taken as a knock on Harmans. Aplace that charges to me is like a club and they do have there place we may not like it but it is so. The people that go out west and pay to stay at a dude ranch and fish its still private water that we are paying to fish. Cant6 say I understand all the hateing out there.

 

[RLeep2]

I have two opinions regarding private water.

The first is that regardless of my circumstances, impediments or situation, I will not participate or use private waters. Ever. I believe that private waters are bad for the future of the sport and I will not be a part of that. If (more like when..) I get to the point where I can no longer safely wade a trout stream, I'll fish from my kayak or get a boat and fish for whatever I can catch by whatever means I can catch them. I can have just as much fun drowning an 1 1/2 inch Berkeley Gulp fake minnow and filling a bucket with crappie as I can dry fly fishing for trout. It's all about the same to me and this sense seems to be growing on me as I age. Maybe I'm coming full circle as an angler, I dunno...

My second opinion regarding private waters is that I will not comment or presume to pass judgement on the choices anybody else makes regarding private waters. I'm not them and they aren't me.

 

[ColdBore]

Well said RLeep2.

Pretty much exactly where I stand on it as well.

It's certainly not for me, but may well be for others.

 

[ryansheehan]

maxima12 wrote:

I have fished a lot of privite clubs when younger, being older and losing the ability to run, i fish them less often!

That's a gem!

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Its not really my thing either but man ive tried a lot of club water by knowing landowners or someone that belonged. In those waters are some nicer stocked or wild, fed or not, trout.
Some of those waters grow bigger trout simply because it is shielded from general regs and the general angling public and has nothing to do with the fishing being fed. Those fish get big and very old.
As i stated before some of those fish get caught in the open waters by the general angling public.

I pose a question:

Since private fishing clubs stream mileage pale in comparison to mileage of open water to fish, do they really negatively impact PA's trout fishing or enhance it?

Keep in mind i do not advocate stocking over wild fish.
I dont like what almost happened on the little j court case.
I do not support clubs or belong to one.
Just asking a question.

 

[troutbert]

Stocking of hatchery trout suppresses wild trout populations.

Whether the hatchery trout are stocked by the PFBC, by coop hatcheries, or clubs.

 

[silverfox]

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
Its not really my thing either but man ive tried a lot of club water by knowing landowners or someone that belonged. In those waters are some nicer stocked or wild, fed or not, trout.
Some of those waters grow bigger trout simply because it is shielded from general regs and the general angling public and has nothing to do with the fishing being fed. Those fish get big and very old.
As i stated before some of those fish get caught in the open waters by the general angling public.

I pose a question:

Since private fishing clubs stream mileage pale in comparison to mileage of open water to fish, do they really negatively impact PA's trout fishing or enhance it?

Keep in mind i do not advocate stocking over wild fish.
I dont like what almost happened on the little j court case.
I do not support clubs or belong to one.
Just asking a question.

This is basically my opinion too, though I've never been on private/club water and probably never will.

The effects of zero harvest and less pressure is very appealing to me. I probably would consider paying if I had access to private water with wild, unfed trout. I think even our C&R reg areas get poached. I'm pretty sure I saw some guys poaching once on a FFO C&R stretch. They were there before daylight and left as soon as I got there. Not to judge, but their vehicle didn't fit the "bro, I throw meat for big browns at night" type.

I think the only way it could harm public water is if they're dumping so much purina trout chow in the stream that it has an impact on water quality. That or if the big fish end up munching on too many parr.

As far as enhancing, I personally have no interest in fake fish. The only "enhancement" I could imagine would be if one of the pellet heads snuck out of the reservation and some kid caught it. I don't know that I'd consider that enhancing though.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

All things considered, while i personally agree with you silverfox, i also disagree with you.
So many rod and gun clubs, private club stockings etc, a lot of them on trout streams yes but also a lot on marginal or transitional trout waters.
Look at Pine as an example of the types of stocked fish these clubs provide. The angler that fishes these waters, especially those approved trout waters adjacent to clubs, are after stocked trout. these people are the majority and they see programs like the keystone select as the next best thing. Most dont even know of wild trout.
These clubs enhance pa trout fishing based solely on their vision.


As Captain O pointed out, stocking is bad for wild trout. Personally i prefer chasing big wild brook trout. Its my favorite.

But most anglers in PA would likely think clubs enhance PA trout fishing.

 

[maxima12]

We seem to be forgetting about Wbranch! He is considering joining a club and or fishing some private water! How does what i like or you like or we like fit his needs.

We should be respectful of Wbranch and try to help him out! I have been knocking myself out, trying to figure a good one for him. Up my way, Larry's Creek ---too small, Texas Blockhouse ----too small but the one that keeps on is Antes Creek. Problem tough wading. But that is central Pa. Someplace local, down Wbranches way.

So let's give a yell to the T.U. boys down southern Pa. Got an idea?

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

He sent me a PM telling me he was gonna do.
No ones forgotten wbranch.

Threads have lives of their own.
Please be respectful of our discussion now.
Help me out and answer my question
:lol:

 

[Mike]

Troutbert, regarding your first sentence in #67 above, if you are referring to competition from hatchery trout, that has been strongly challenged regarding population effects in Idaho’s review of scientific research projects that met what were presented as important design criteria. I mentioned the title and location of that paper in a previous thread.

Separately, I have in the past described the tremendous growth of Codorus’ Ck’s wild brown trout population despite very heavy stocking in its former DH Area, which is now its poorly named Trophy Trout Area. Within two or three yrs after becoming a DH area, the low density wild brown population expanded way into the Class A biomass category despite very intensive adult trout stocking at rates as high as 300 trout per acre. These days, most streams do not receive such a high stocking rate.

If you are referring to the effects of wild trout by-catch, primarily in non-special reg water, that can happen but it is most likely fishery and/or species specific. I would expect it to occur mostly, if at all, these days wild with brook trout populations. For clarification, I do not favor stocking over Class B ST pops. When WCO’s and other personnel have looked for wild brown trout in opening weekend harvests along SE Pa stocked Class A streams, few wild fish have been seen.

As for Sal’s question, the primary problem with privatization is the loss of public access, especially when the loss occurs to good quality fisheries or areas with beautiful aesthetics. Preventing such losses may require continued stocking in some cases.

 

[maxima12]

Thanks Mike, your a lot smarter than me and your point is appreciated.

 

[PennKev]

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:

Since private fishing clubs stream mileage pale in comparison to mileage of open water to fish, do they really negatively impact PA's trout fishing or enhance it?

Depends if you consider unnaturally large, pellet fed fish an enhancement to places like Spruce/LJR.

I think the argument could be made that they enhance a stream like Yellow Creek (Indiana). I have no problem with such a place even though i have little desire to fish it. On the other hand such cliubs also exist on streams that are already quality wild trout waters, or could become so without stocking/feeding. What I see as a problem is clubs overlaying an artificial fishery on a stream like Spruce in order to take advantage of an existing reputation as a world class stream. Their advertising tends to focus on how great the stream habitat is in an effort to conceal the fact that the actual fishing is as phony as a $3 bill.

Spruce would be a fine wild trout fishery without any commercial fishing clubs. But it would also be different. A stream full of healthy wild fish of more modest size is of more value than a glorified high class kiddie pond full of pellet monsters. If eliminating the later means less chance of whale sized rainbows ending up in the LJR, I can live with that. I would go so far as to say that a mediocre wild trout stream with mostly small fish is even worth more than club water. But then again, my personal view is that stocked trout should be only placed in waters that are devoid or nearly devoid of wild fish, and I have no desire to fish for artificially fed fish, wild or otherwise.

 

[bigjohn58]

maxima12 wrote:
We seem to be forgetting about Wbranch! He is considering joining a club and or fishing some private water! How does what i like or you like or we like fit his needs.

We should be respectful of Wbranch and try to help him out! I have been knocking myself out, trying to figure a good one for him. Up my way, Larry's Creek ---too small, Texas Blockhouse ----too small but the one that keeps on is Antes Creek. Problem tough wading. But that is central Pa. Someplace local, down Wbranches way.

So let's give a yell to the T.U. boys down southern Pa. Got an idea?

Antes Creek may have a club but its a very very small portion of the stream. I actually recently tried to find information on this stream. This is one of the streams that I feel is a real shame no one gets to experience it. The vast majority of the stream is owned by cabin owners only owning a very small portion of the stream. Each cabin owner really only has permission to fish their small section of the stream. Also last I heard there is an issue with a farm near the quarry there dumping silt or something into the stream. The state does not care since its all private. The cabin owner I talked to said nothing is being done about it BECAUSE of the stream being private. The cabin owner said if anything wanted to be done about it all the cabin owners would need to get a lawyer to fight it and that just isn't going to happen. I guess trout populations have really taken a hit along with the one small club that is on Antes stocking over the wild fish. I guess this stream was a gem but is a shadow of its old self. This is a prime example though of privatizing a stream and the general public loosing interest allowing bad things to happen.

 

[rrt]

Mike,

Respectfully -- I'm not sure Larry Jackson would agree with you. Around here, the stocking of several streams was stopped during the Operation FUTURE program, and their populations of wild trout exploded dramatically. (I'm not naming them.)

I think the same thing occurred in Montana after their fish managers halted stocking and in some places placed restrictive kill limits.

Though I'm not a biologist, my anecdotal experiences support this -- that ending the stocking of trout is beneficial to the overall wild trout population. (Maybe not in some of the waters you mentioned, though)

OP -- Anyhow, I hope WB finds some private water to his liking.

 

[wbranch]

Rleep2 wrote;

I will not participate or use private waters. Ever. I believe that private waters are bad for the future of the sport and I will not be a part of that.

Good for you. I've fished private waters in MT for over fifty years and have enjoyed every minute I've spent on them. Fishing over wild trout in the 16" - 21" range that rise pretty much all day long. Those private waters have been going strong for over fifty years and hundreds of fly anglers of varying skills have fished them and have gladly paid the day fee to enjoy fishing for larger trout in beautiful country with a limited number of other anglers.

I met Joe Brooks on some of those private waters. Swisher and Richards gathered a lot of their data for "Selective Trout" on private spring creeks. I've also fished public water in MT for those fifty years and had equally good fishing. Some of it with virtually no other anglers and some instances, on the Big Horn, where guides would challenge me if I happened to pull into a pool or riffle and they would come out and say "You can't fish here, I am saving it for my clients".

Some of us enjoy only fishing open and public water and others can enjoy both public and private. I've done equally well on both types of waters.

 

[wbranch]

Maxima12 wrote;

We seem to be forgetting about Wbranch! He is considering joining a club and or fishing some private water! How does what i like or you like or we like fit his needs. We should be respectful of Wbranch and try to help him out! I have been knocking myself out, trying to figure a good one for him. Up my way, Larry's Creek ---too small, Texas Blockhouse ----too small but the one that keeps on is Antes Creek. Problem tough wading. But that is central Pa. Someplace local, down Wbranches way. So let's give a yell to the T.U. boys down southern Pa. Got an idea?

Puleeeasssse you can forget about me. I'm sorry I even posed the inquiry in the first place. Opinions are fine but to tell you the truth I wasn't interested in opinions judging the merits, and lack there of, pertaining to private clubs and private waters.

Some of you guys hate the thought of private water. Sure, your telling me if you a chance to fish private water, with wild trout, you are going to say "No thanks, I won't ever fish private water". Yea, right.

Maxima, there is no need for you to try and figure out where I can fish. I am not in a wheel chair and I can still wade. I just need to pick where I want to wade and it has to meet certain criteria; not deeper than 3', easy to wade, no big boulders, soft water. While I know your heart is in the right place I am still able to handle my Hyde, bass boat, and the frameless pontoon I keep in Montana.

I have communicated with a few Forum members who are less inclined to be hating and more inclined to fish with me and give me a hand with the boats.

I wish all of you a Blessed Christmas and a great New Year.

 

[JackM]

I say the mic has dropped on this thread.

 

[RLeep2]

>>Some of you guys hate the thought of private water. Sure, your telling me if you a chance to fish private water, with wild trout, you are going to say "No thanks, I won't ever fish private water". Yea, right.>>

I beg your pardon? I said quite clearly in my earlier post that under no circumstances would I ever patronize or fish private water. What I said is precisely what I meant and what I intend.
There is no "yea right" about it.

Hopefully, this clears up any existing confusion as to what I might do.

Thanks..