Pennsylvania's Best Brook Trout Waters?

Weirdly the club seems somehow affilliated with a Trout Unlimited chapter? Not sure I read it right. The site is confusing to me. Not a real good look for TU if you ask me. Although not the first time TU gets wrapped up with private water.
Curious if TU has an official position on native Brook Trout? And if they are supportive of efforts to restore them?
 
Weirdly the club seems somehow affilliated with a Trout Unlimited chapter? Not sure I read it right. The site is confusing to me. Not a real good look for TU if you ask me. Although not the first time TU gets wrapped up with private water.
Curious if TU has an official position on native Brook Trout? And if they are supportive of efforts to restore them?
I'm not sure if it's the case here, but I know in some other states where TU put pressure on chapters to distance themselves from stocking over wild trout, the chapter members formed a separate entity to continue their stocking adventures so as not to tie TU to the activity.
 
I dunno if the club on Antes stocks. Have no personal knowledge whether they do or don’t, but, most clubs in PA who have privatized a section of stream do stock. I think that’s pretty well accepted. Again, I’m not saying this particular one does or doesn’t, just that most do.

And agree, the geology of that particular watershed is very interesting. I wish I could fish Antes!
 
To clarify, Rauchtown and its tribs are small forested freestone streams. Rauchtown from the one time I fished it, above the SP, appeared to be a roughly 50/50 Brookie/Brown mix. It was meh. I didn’t have a strong desire to fish it again since, and haven’t.

Rauchtown then sinks into limestone geology as noted shortly below the SP, and presumably becomes part of the flow that emerges from the spring several miles to the north as Antes Creek - Along with the water draining the remainder of the bowl like basin to the north and east of where Rauchtown sinks. That whole bowl is underlain by limestone, and presumably that whole watershed emerges all at once as a full on limestoner as Antes Creek, and then cuts through the mountain gap along 44 to the West Branch. I’ve never fished Antes, as it’s high in the running for the most tightly posted stream in PA, but from what I gather it’s a very good wild Brown Trout fishery from the emergence of the spring to its mouth.

But, in the case of Rauchtown and its surface flow above and through the SP area, it’s all freestone geology until it sinks. There’s no surface flow for a distance of 3 or 4 miles until the spring that emerges as Antes.

In that general area, this is fairly common. Streams originate as freestone streams in the mountains, then sink into limestone geology when they hit the valley floor, to re-emerge somewhere further downstream in the watershed via a spring as a limestoner. Honey Creek is very similar for instance, and emerges all at once from a large spring after its tribs have sunk further upstream, and there are numerous small streams that do this in the BFC and Spring Creek watersheds as well.
That's a good description. There are a few other smaller freestone tribs that also sink in that valley. And Antes Creek originates near a limestone quarry. I fished it once, when I got invited by a family that owns land along there. It was a cold day and fishing was slow, but we caught a few wild browns.

Sinks and springs, karst geology, etc. if a very large and interesting topic. But probably should be another thread.
 
Weirdly the club seems somehow affilliated with a Trout Unlimited chapter? Not sure I read it right. The site is confusing to me. Not a real good look for TU if you ask me. Although not the first time TU gets wrapped up with private water.
Curious if TU has an official position on native Brook Trout? And if they are supportive of efforts to restore them?
At the national level TU supports native fish restoration, but the chapters are all over the place based on the whims of their members. Chapters that stock over native trout can lose their charter from the national org...not sure if it has ever happened, but it can.
 
I once went to Rauchtown Creek in late summer or fall.
And found the fish commission shocking a sizable pool ,right along the main road by the park.
Watched them measure and release a beautiful wild brown that was at least 15" long.
From a small headwater stream like that, I was quite impressed.

As for Antes Creek - there used to be a very short section on the lower end of the stream that wasn't posted, that I fished once or twice
However, I haven't been there for about 10 - 15 years now.
 
It's a super neat looking creek. It sort of reminds me of Elk Creek, trib to Penns.
 
prime example of a TU chapter gone rogue was some members in the schuyllkill county TU. They got in trouble for stocking over wild native brook trout I believe and then stocking was moved to an organization called schuyllkill county headwaters who does alot of good AmD remediation hower when the make the water less acidic and stock invasive trout everywhere we know thats a terrible combination for native brook trout based on tom clarks kratzer run study. Their putting vibert egg boxes with brown trout eggs in brook trout streams, just like truly some of the woarst stuff you can do in a brook stream. There are so many groups stocking schuyllkill county its sickening. I know atleast 3 entities that have been spoken too and they aren’t interested their making a bad decision decision for all of us up there in these streams that have native brook trout potential and doing some real damage.
 
prime example of a TU chapter gone rogue was some members in the schuyllkill county TU. They got in trouble for stocking over wild native brook trout I believe and then stocking was moved to an organization called schuyllkill county headwaters who does alot of good AmD remediation hower when the make the water less acidic and stock invasive trout everywhere we know thats a terrible combination for native brook trout based on tom clarks kratzer run study. Their putting vibert egg boxes with brown trout eggs in brook trout streams, just like truly some of the woarst stuff you can do in a brook stream. There are so many groups stocking schuyllkill county its sickening. I know atleast 3 entities that have been spoken too and they aren’t interested their making a bad decision decision for all of us up there in these streams that have native brook trout potential and doing some real damage.
Not to mention they stock a ton of hatchery brook trout because thats what takes in those amd headwaters. Introgression in those small systems is a real concern.
 
Most of my brookie fishing in PA is focused on the streams on South Mountain (Michaux SF) and Big Spring.
Generally speaking and based on four decades of experience. . . I regard the fishing on SM as stable or having declined somewhat (some streams are better) for brookies since the 1980s. Big Spring is much better than the 80s for brookies.

The small streams on SM are worth a visit, but I often tell newbies to lower their expectations a bit. While Michaux may look and feel like Lycoming County, don't expect to catch dozens of brookies. A good afternoon would be a half dozen fish; I'd regard a dozen fish in an afternoon to be exceptional. I have many days when I'm skunked.
 
Most of my brookie fishing in PA is focused on the streams on South Mountain (Michaux SF) and Big Spring.
Generally speaking and based on four decades of experience. . . I regard the fishing on SM as stable or having declined somewhat (some streams are better) for brookies since the 1980s. Big Spring is much better than the 80s for brookies.

The small streams on SM are worth a visit, but I often tell newbies to lower their expectations a bit. While Michaux may look and feel like Lycoming County, don't expect to catch dozens of brookies. A good afternoon would be a half dozen fish; I'd regard a dozen fish in an afternoon to be exceptional. I have many days when I'm skunked.
On Big Spring do you find them spread out through the stream or mostly way up top? (I usually see them up top.)
 
Most if the time around nealy road or above rainbows above and below down to a certain extent. With streams that havr brook trout and another species, brook trout generally get pushed upstream as a rule based on the articles/studies I usually post on here. But they stock the crap out of it with brook trout below so ya never know. We all have our suspicions but there are no certainties in telling.

I have noticed all trout species seem to really drop off density wise when you get down below the stone bridge but thats just me fishing. Id be interested to see shocking from that low down section below stone bridge to see whats down there.
On Big Spring do you find them spread out through the stream or mostly way up top? (I usually see them up top.)
 
On Big Spring do you find them spread out through the stream or mostly way up top? (I usually see them up top.)
I've caught brook trout from the stone arch bridge to the ditch, and, of course, in the ditch. I don't know that I can say I've ever caught a "wild" brook trout below the ditch. If I had to guess, every single brook trout I've caught from the ditch down is stocked. Some look very good, but I highly doubt they're stream-born fish.
 
I've caught brook trout from the stone arch bridge to the ditch, and, of course, in the ditch. I don't know that I can say I've ever caught a "wild" brook trout below the ditch. If I had to guess, every single brook trout I've caught from the ditch down is stocked. Some look very good, but I highly doubt they're stream-born fish.
mike correct me if I am wrong but they never did an actually reintroduction/ translocation, they just started stocking it with sport hatchery fish like those stocked today. So technically its not a reintroduction its ill equipped to survive its wild reproducing hatchery lineage fish. I figured there are any number of better more survivable candidate populations that would do much better in big spring
 
I am weak on the last few decades of stocking of Big Spring except to say that I never heard of any translocations or intentional fingerling/adult stockings of Big Spring within the special reg area. I think I might have gotten wind of that if it had occurred, given agency knowledge of my interest and history with the stream and the fact that two of the three recent AFM’s there worked with me in Area 6 for years. My recollection though is that it is a regular adult trout stocked stream immediately below the special reg area unless that changed and I never knew about it, which is quite possible. It’s easy enough to check the reg book for the lower limit of the special reg area and match that against the upper limit of the stocked section as shown on the stocking schedule of the PFBC web site. Do it fast though because the stocking schedule disappears for a while toward the end of one yr and/or the beginning of the new yr.
 
I am weak on the last few decades of stocking of Big Spring except to say that I never heard of any translocations or intentional fingerling/adult stockings of Big Spring within the special reg area. I think I might have gotten wind of that if it had occurred. My recollection though is that it is a regular adult trout stocked stream immediately below the special reg area unless that changed and I never knew about it, which is quite possible. It’s easy enough to check the reg book for the lower limit of the special reg area and match that against the upper limit of the stocked section as shown on the stocking schedule of the PFBC web site. Do it fast though because the stocking schedule disappears for a while toward the end of one yr and/or the beginning of the new yr.
Thanks for clarifying, i figured any potential translocations done for reintroduction after the habitat work would have been outside stocking schedule but i think you’re right its just what’s online from sport hatchery. I don’t think similar life history/genetics specifically were used
 
I am weak on the last few decades of stocking of Big Spring except to say that I never heard of any translocations or intentional fingerling/adult stockings of Big Spring within the special reg area. I think I might have gotten wind of that if it had occurred, given agency knowledge of my interest and history with the stream and the fact that two of the three recent AFM’s there worked with me in Area 6 for years. My recollection though is that it is a regular adult trout stocked stream immediately below the special reg area unless that changed and I never knew about it, which is quite possible. It’s easy enough to check the reg book for the lower limit of the special reg area and match that against the upper limit of the stocked section as shown on the stocking schedule of the PFBC web site. Do it fast though because the stocking schedule disappears for a while toward the end of one yr and/or the beginning of the new yr.
This is what fishsticks is talking about. It implies that brook trout were "translocated" into big spring to bolster the population. It's entirely possible they sourced stock from a nearby limestone stream, or captive bred fish specifically for better survival traits etc., but there's no further information on what exactly "translocation" means as it applies to the Big Spring project.


Screen Shot 2022 11 18 at 53630 PM



It's a bit odd too that it states it took 10 years to complete, so if they were translocating ST from some wild source stock and doing it for 10 years, you'd think there would be an article on it or it might have been mentioned in the big spring fisheries restoration plan: https://www.fishandboat.com/Fish/Fisheries/BigSpringCreek/Documents/BigSpring_restoration_summ.pdf or here: https://www.fishandboat.com/Fish/Fisheries/BigSpringCreek/Documents/BigSpringPublicMtng2012.pdf, or here: https://www.fishandboat.com/Transact/AnglerBoater/AnglerBoater2011/JulyAugust/Documents/06bigspr.pdf or here: https://www.fishandboat.com/Fish/Fisheries/BigSpringCreek/Documents/BigSpring_2012nov_recommend.pdf

I searched all of those documents and couldn't find any mention of translocations of brook trout. You'd think that would be mentioned somewhere as it's an important approach and should be touted. If you're writing all of the other pieces, why omit that you're trying to bolster the population with wild genetics? Though I think a natural question would be, why are you trying to bolster the population with wild genetics while continuing to stock hatchery genetics? Unless the hatchery fish ARE the "translocation source stock."
 
Don't get me wrong, these are cool fish, and I enjoy catching them, but I highly doubt they were born IN Big Spring. They look like the brook trout from Huntsdale to me. I wish they'd fin clip the stockers or the "translocated" fish so there was some indication of origin.

Big pennsylvania brook trout


Brook trout belly


Big brookie closeup


20190727 091814

This one is obviously a concrete ditch fish.
PA holdover stocked brook trout


These two are suspicious. They were together along with a bunch of others the same size/shape. They don't look like the others and don't quite look like stocked fish, but I don't think they're wild, either. Someone from the area who is knowledgable about such things quickly exclaimed that they're stockers, so I'm sticking with that. Their body shape is odd though.

Fat PA Brook Trout

Pennsylvania Fat Brook Trout
 
Don't get me wrong, these are cool fish, and I enjoy catching them, but I highly doubt they were born IN Big Spring. They look like the brook trout from Huntsdale to me. I wish they'd fin clip the stockers or the "translocated" fish so there was some indication of origin.

View attachment 1641227712

View attachment 1641227713

View attachment 1641227714

View attachment 1641227715
This one is obviously a concrete ditch fish.
View attachment 1641227716

These two are suspicious. They were together along with a bunch of others the same size/shape. They don't look like the others and don't quite look like stocked fish, but I don't think they're wild, either. Someone from the area who is knowledgable about such things quickly exclaimed that they're stockers, so I'm sticking with that. Their body shape is odd though.

View attachment 1641227717
View attachment 1641227718
Ahh. So the big Brook Trout I was so excited about in Big Spring are stockies. Dang.
 
I don't think any of those fish are stockers. The post-restoration surveys of big spring showed a huge increase in YoY downstream of the ditch.

The ridiculous food supply of Big Spring gives you fish that have bigger bodies than you'd expect, making them appear similar to hatchery fish. But there's nothing wrong with any of the fins on any of those fish. Just my opinion.
 
Back
Top