Pennsylvania's Best Brook Trout Waters?

[Fish Sticks]

To echo silverfox’s point, it would be so easy, effortless, and cost free to take some of the regular social media, regulation book, youtube content, press releases, stream side signage, or live in person events the commission already does and educate the public on the value of brook trout and the dangers of having invasive trout in conflict with them where brook trout exist.

You could look at no changes in regulations and say xyz is political or their worried about xyz. But its much more deeply disturbing that there is not even an effort to pick the lowest hanging, but critical, fruit of doing public awareness education that would eventually facilitate acceptance of some eventual reg/management changes.

This shows a clear deliberate effort by the ones who are supposed to be the guardians of our most precious aquatic resources to let native brook trout slip out of the publics eye. My guess would be to avoid as much scrutiny as possible over the fisheries management malpractice occurring at the commission right now. We are obviously decades behind some neighboring other states in.

1. Not stocking native brook trout over native brook trout
2. Private stocking regulation
3. Overlapping stocked invasive trout species over native brook trout
4. Selecting ANY watershed scale brook trout management zones with no stock c and R in would be strongholds.
5. Catch and release regulations
6. We actually have essentially almost watershed level no stock with catch and release for the 3rd biggest threat in PA, Brown trout. Its called the little J and spring creek. Its not that the state is unwilling to do these scale of regs, its just they will do it for wild invasive trout but not wild native brook trout.
7. We obviously are not doing any successful reintroductions because commission won’t do invasive trout removal ANYWHERE in Pa while some other states combined have over 100+ of them and still have their blue ribbon brown trout streams obviously fishing didn’t get hurt.


There is a lot more areas we are behind but these are the main ones

 

[caddisflyer]

I get the idea of protecting Brook trout as part of overall ecological health of planet but I am curious if any of the other states doing these things have good fishing? What size waterways are we talking about? Can you name any large waterways in PA where we could ever hope for a sustainable all Brook Trout fishery? By the way I am all for protecting all native fish where we can but realistically don't see it happening for any species on a large scale in PA.

 

[silverfox]

To echo silverfox’s point, it would be so easy, effortless, and cost free to take some of the regular social media, regulation book, youtube content, press releases, stream side signage, or live in person events the commission already does and educate the public on the value of brook trout and the dangers of having invasive trout in conflict with them where brook trout exist.

You could look at no changes in regulations and say xyz is political or their worried about xyz. But its much more deeply disturbing that there is not even an effort to pick the lowest hanging, but critical, fruit of doing public awareness education that would eventually facilitate acceptance of some eventual reg/management changes.

This shows a clear deliberate effort by the ones who are supposed to be the guardians of our most precious aquatic resources to let native brook trout slip out of the publics eye. My guess would be to avoid as much scrutiny as possible over the fisheries management malpractice occurring at the commission right now. We are obviously decades behind some neighboring other states in.

1. Not stocking native brook trout over native brook trout
2. Private stocking regulation
3. Overlapping stocked invasive trout species over native brook trout
4. Selecting ANY watershed scale brook trout management zones with no stock c and R in would be strongholds.
5. Catch and release regulations
6. We actually have essentially almost watershed level no stock with catch and release for the 3rd biggest threat in PA, Brown trout. Its called the little J and spring creek. Its not that the state is unwilling to do these scale of regs, its just they will do it for wild invasive trout but not wild native brook trout.
7. We obviously are not doing any successful reintroductions because commission won’t do invasive trout removal ANYWHERE in Pa while some other states combined have over 100+ of them and still have their blue ribbon brown trout streams obviously fishing didn’t get hurt.


There is a lot more areas we are behind but these are the main ones

Now that I've looked at how things function outside of Pennsylvania, I think there is a fundamental problem with how our fisheries are managed from an organizational standpoint. We've decoupled conservation from fisheries management. Note that it's MD"DNR", NY"DEC", NJ"DNR", WV"DNR" etc. etc. etc. Here, we have DCNR and the PFBC, which should be one in the same. We've separated conservation from fisheries management. The result is an aquaculture operation that promotes a "product" to sell licenses instead of a natural resource conservation agency working to protect natural resources.

I know that's harsh, but it explains a lot. To be fair, PFBC DOES carry out conservation work and has done a lot for fisheries conservation in the state. However, the structure of the agency forces it to focus on the "product" instead of the resources. As a result, they've developed the largest non-conservation hatchery system of any state in the country.

In the most recent PFBC operations manual, the following was added to the ED's role under the "Shall not" section.

Cause the “Resource First” philosophy to be interpreted as a wild-fish-only policy, eliminate hatcheries, or eliminate fish stocking.

https://www.fishandboat.com/AboutUs/Documents/policy_manual_2021.pdf

To me, that shows that they know exactly what the problem is and went to such lengths as to codify that the agency can't do what is obvious.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I get the idea of protecting Brook trout as part of overall ecological health of planet but I am curious if any of the other states doing these things have good fishing? What size waterways are we talking about? Can you name any large waterways in PA where we could ever hope for a sustainable all Brook Trout fishery? By the way I am all for protecting all native fish where we can but realistically don't see it happening for any species on a large scale in PA.

Thats the irony, in Va, WV, MD there are medium sized streams part of large water sheds with over 100 stream miles of almost all native brook trout fishing. I think your suggesting this would have to be state wide but in reality this would be 3-4 watersheds in Pa and youd still have all the fabeled blue ribbion wild invasive trout spring creeks in Pa. Fishing essentially would not have to significantly change unless you drive past pennscreek because your a die hard fan of stocked invasive brown trout in kettle, pine, or kther north central streams.

 

[silverfox]

I get the idea of protecting Brook trout as part of overall ecological health of planet but I am curious if any of the other states doing these things have good fishing? What size waterways are we talking about? Can you name any large waterways in PA where we could ever hope for a sustainable all Brook Trout fishery? By the way I am all for protecting all native fish where we can but realistically don't see it happening for any species on a large scale in PA.

Exactly. Why is that?

Yes, the other states "doing these things" have outstanding brook trout fishing. Especially if you want to target brook trout specifically. That's the whole point here.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

WV is Wonderful for Brook Trout fishing, even larger than PA brook trout.

That picture of the colored blocks with only 2 green is telling.

Pcray knocked it out of the park on this thread.

Yes I could name at least 5 larger watersheds in PA that would be outstanding if managed properly and helped with habitat.
I won't for the reasons listed at the beginning of this thread..

 

[caddisflyer]

I am thinking that perhaps Brook Trout cannot handle the pressure of the kind of daily fishing that a stream like Spring Creek or Big Springs gets. Trout fishing has exploded in the last 20 yrs or so. There is hardly a day regardless of weather that you don't see people fishing Spring Creek. There is probably a good reason that the only decent Brook Trout fishing in PA is on remote streams. Even when they have it all to themselves (no Browns) they may not tolerate fishing pressure very well. There may be many other factors that combined with daily fishing and catch and release are just not tolerated by Brookies.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I am thinking that perhaps Brook Trout cannot handle the pressure of the kind of daily fishing that a stream like Spring Creek or Big Springs gets. Trout fishing has exploded in the last 20 yrs or so. There is hardly a day regardless of weather that you don't see people fishing Spring Creek. There is probably a good reason that the only decent Brook Trout fishing in PA is on remote streams. Even when they have it all to themselves (no Browns) they may not tolerate fishing pressure very well. There may be many other factors that combined with daily fishing and catch and release are just not tolerated by Brookies.

The savage river gets an insane amount of pressure. You can have plates from 10 differents states ive heard on a hiven day and people camp there for week at a time to fish. Still has trophy brook trout. Theres a reason EBTJV has browns ranked 3rd above sediment and urbanization in threats for PA. Larger brook trout can be just as wary and resistant to pressure as browns as we see on big spring

 

[Fish Sticks]

I am thinking that perhaps Brook Trout cannot handle the pressure of the kind of daily fishing that a stream like Spring Creek or Big Springs gets. Trout fishing has exploded in the last 20 yrs or so. There is hardly a day regardless of weather that you don't see people fishing Spring Creek. There is probably a good reason that the only decent Brook Trout fishing in PA is on remote streams. Even when they have it all to themselves (no Browns) they may not tolerate fishing pressure very well. There may be many other factors that combined with daily fishing and catch and release are just not tolerated by Brookies.

Conversely there are headwater streams invaded by browns where brook trout have been displaced where you can catch 50 3”-5” browns in a day that are super wasy to catch

 

[silverfox]

I am thinking that perhaps Brook Trout cannot handle the pressure of the kind of daily fishing that a stream like Spring Creek or Big Springs gets. Trout fishing has exploded in the last 20 yrs or so. There is hardly a day regardless of weather that you don't see people fishing Spring Creek. There is probably a good reason that the only decent Brook Trout fishing in PA is on remote streams. Even when they have it all to themselves (no Browns) they may not tolerate fishing pressure very well. There may be many other factors that combined with daily fishing and catch and release are just not tolerated by Brookies.

This ignores that most other states don't have this problem. Why would MD, VA, or WV promote their best brook trout streams if they were concerned about them being "fished out?" The USR in MD has seen significant increases in brook trout populations due to C&R, so the theory that brook trout don't tolerate C&R simply isn't true.

That said, brook trout don't tolerate disturbances and will move out of areas of high traffic. That doesn't mean they disappear, it means they move to areas with less traffic. So you have to put in more effort for brook trout in high traffic areas. That doesn't mean it isn't a good fishery. It just means it's not an easy fishery.

The key to this is spreading out the pressure. You need watersheds with 100 miles of protected streams, not 3/4 of a mile of one stream. Exactly what MD, VA, and WV have done.

 

[Fish Sticks]

This ignores that most other states don't have this problem. Why would MD, VA, or WV promote their best brook trout streams if they were concerned about them being "fished out?" The USR in MD has seen significant increases in brook trout populations due to C&R, so the theory that brook trout don't tolerate C&R simply isn't true.

That said, brook trout don't tolerate disturbances and will move out of areas of high traffic. That doesn't mean they disappear, it means they move to areas with less traffic. So you have to put in more effort for brook trout in high traffic areas. That doesn't mean it isn't a good fishery. It just means it's not an easy fishery.

The key to this is spreading out the pressure. You need watersheds with 100 miles of protected streams, not 3/4 of a mile of one stream. Exactly what MD, VA, and WV have done.

Agreed.

it’s basically just as simple as we have not created large brook trout waters like other states so we have tiny stream sections everyone falsely assumes the can only live.

And yes of course these .4 mile long extreme headwater sections cannot sustain high angler volume.

You create a place that could sustain high angler traffic and produce larger brook trout by taking kettle above alvin bush or pine creek watershed and not stocking it full of stocked invasive species. Then you let the consumptive anglers go nuts on invasive trout species in that special management area. Theres no way watershed level management such as that and taking extremely high volume stocking off brook trout wouldn’t benefit them and you would probably get larger fish becUse they can then use larger habitat. Like mike always says the habitat and forage is important for size. Well pine has more food than slate but we are filling it to the brim with the third largest disturbance in Pa listed by EBTJV, Invasive brown trout.

 

[caddisflyer]

This ignores that most other states don't have this problem. Why would MD, VA, or WV promote their best brook trout streams if they were concerned about them being "fished out?" The USR in MD has seen significant increases in brook trout populations due to C&R, so the theory that brook trout don't tolerate C&R simply isn't true.

That said, brook trout don't tolerate disturbances and will move out of areas of high traffic. That doesn't mean they disappear, it means they move to areas with less traffic. So you have to put in more effort for brook trout in high traffic areas. That doesn't mean it isn't a good fishery. It just means it's not an easy fishery.

The key to this is spreading out the pressure. You need watersheds with 100 miles of protected streams, not 3/4 of a mile of one stream. Exactly what MD, VA, and WV have done.

So Big Springs or even Spring would not really be adequate as an experimental stream to try Brook Trout?

 

[Fish Sticks]

So Big Springs or even Spring would not really be adequate as an experimental stream to try Brook Trout?

Big Springs is still stocked with hatchery brook trout that have ability to pollute genetics of wild native brook trout in there and wild invasive rainbows are still protected. Also its a small watershed, its not the 100+ miles of the savage rover so again your concentrating your pressure.

Spring creek has the temps and thermal refuge and there are still some brook trout in around 4-5 tribs but you would have to do removal of the wild invasive brown trout population which is not possible in a stream that size and plus fish can stick their head in a spring seep when the cloud of rotenone comes downstream and survive anyway even in small streams. I mean if you did “debulking” or what fisheries scientists call “mowing the lawn” of wild invasive brown trout then you may be able to recover brook trout downstream where they were displaced from, I don’t know to be honest. However, spring creek despite having cold water, great habitat, and abundant food is already completely overwhelmed with browns for brook trout so its harder. Also socially that would start a huge conflict because spring creek is a popular blue ribbon wild invasive brown trout fishery.

a better option would be….

A larger network like kettle, pine or another north central stream where the stage of invasion is not as high as spring watershed that has a larger surface area would be a better candidate for watershed level management, a healthy population, and a popular fishery

 

[caddisflyer]

Big Springs is still stocked with hatchery brook trout that have ability to pollute genetics of wild native brook trout in there and wild invasive rainbows are still protected. Also its a small watershed, its not the 100+ miles of the savage rover so again your concentrating your pressure.

Spring creek has the temps and thermal refuge and there are still some brook trout in around 4-5 tribs but you would have to do removal of the wild invasive brown trout population which is not possible in a stream that size and plus fish can stick their head in a spring seep when the cloud of rotenone comes downstream and survive anyway even in small streams. I mean if you did “debulking” or what fisheries scientists call “mowing the lawn” of wild invasive brown trout then you may be able to recover brook trout downstream where they were displaced from, I don’t know to be honest. However, spring creek despite having cold water, great habitat, and abundant food is already completely overwhelmed with browns for brook trout so its harder. Also socially that would start a huge conflict because spring creek is a popular blue ribbon wild invasive brown trout fishery.

a better option would be….

A larger network like kettle, pine or another north central stream where the stage of invasion is not as high as spring watershed that has a larger surface area would be a better candidate for watershed level management, a healthy population, and a popular fishery

Kettle and Pine both get super warm over most of their length.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Kettle and Pine both get super warm over most of their length.

Yea but that larger habitat is open and available for the majority of the year and Petty et. al in 2014 shower those habitats are important for growth and the whole point of Dr. Shannon Whites studies are that these large corridors called “warm water fisheries” are actually very important highways for brook trout for most of the year to move and share their genes with other populations. The tribs will be refuge for those brook trout all summer long and the fishery will exist 3 seasons a year just like for wild invasive brown trout. I don’t see why we always apply a different standard for brook trout. Some will use thermal refuge in kettles mainstem at various times of the year. Not all ground water comes from limestone formations.

Penns, yellow breeches, parts of spring, the Kishiquillas and many more limestoners we call “wild brown trout fisheries” get too warm to fish and fish crowd at mouths, run up tribs or find thermal refuge at fine scale cold spots. Why do we always go “but its too warm its too warm” for brook trout. The 7 day upper incipient lethal temperature difference between brook and brown trout is less than one degree celsius different. Those browns don’t sit comfortably in the warm mainstem stream temps in kettle or pine they run up a trib, sit at a mouth, or find groundwater too, its not like the difference between a small mouth or a trout. Only difference is according to many studies brook trout can’t use those larger thermal refufe spots downstream where the food is when tou stock em full of invasive brown trout.

 

[caddisflyer]

There's not a great wild Brown fishery on Kettle or Pine and their tribs other than Slate or Cedar or possibly Cross Fork and they are really nothing much either anymore. ( Have you fished any of them in last ten years?) I can't imagine a plan that would restore only Brook Trout to any of those watersheds.

 

[silverfox]

So Big Springs or even Spring would not really be adequate as an experimental stream to try Brook Trout?

While Big Spring isn't ideal in terms of a "healthy population," (lack of tributaries, movement barrier, length/size) it's one of the only limestone streams in the state that wouldn't be fully occupied by nonnative species (if it were managed that way). It's also the largest limestone stream in the state that could be an allopatric brook trout stream for most of its length. Given its history as a world-renowned brook trout stream, efforts should be taken to return it to that status since, aside from nonnative trout, it's in better shape habitat-wise than it has been in decades.

Kettle and Pine both get super warm over most of their length.

So does the Savage.

You have to get over this idea that because a river gets too warm to support brook trout for three months out of the year that it's of no use to brook trout. Mainstems are a critical component of a brook trout population's long-term resilience and genetic diversity. Not because they live in it 12 months of the year, but because they live in it for 6-9 months when they need it most (over winter). Mainstem conditions from November - May are better for brook trout due to food availability, milder temperatures, lack of anchor ice (generally), and larger habitat. The reality is mainstem conditions are conducive to trout survival for more months out of the year than they're not. That applies to more than just brook trout and is exactly why PFBC recently made all waters downstream of STW C&R after labor day-opening day the following year.

 

[silverfox]

There's not a great wild Brown fishery on Kettle or Pine and their tribs other than Slate or Cedar or possibly Cross Fork and they are really nothing much either anymore. ( Have you fished any of them in last ten years?) I can't imagine a plan that would restore only Brook Trout to any of those watersheds.

I can say that both of us (myself and fishsticks) have fished all of them this year.

We've been over this before, but that's exactly what Maryland did with the Upper Savage River. I'm not sure people who have never been to the upper Savage understand the scale of that watershed. It's essentially the same size as Kettle Creek and all of its tributaries from Alvin Bush the whole way to its headwaters. You can't imagine that because you live in Pennsylvania, where we have nothing that compares to it.

 

[Fish Sticks]

There's not a great wild Brown fishery on Kettle or Pine and their tribs other than Slate or Cedar or possibly Cross Fork and they are really nothing much either anymore. ( Have you fished any of them in last ten years?) I can't imagine a plan that would restore only Brook Trout to any of those watersheds.

Yea thats my point that there is not a great wild brown trout fishery up there. Thats why it’s an opportunity if they could stop stocking it full of invasive brown trout brook trout could use larger dowstream habitat in slate cedar upper pine and other areas in hotter periods. I have fished it plenty in the past year and i would ask have you ever fished it in the colder months because i know multiple guides that get very large wild native brook trout out of the big water on pine before may/june.

If your trying to tell me Pine and Kettle are not a good place to manage for a wild native brook trout fishery I guess this is an easy one then because the watershed is listed as a native brook trout stronghold by the Eastern Brook Trout Joint Venture as a prime area to manage for and protect brook trout.

The below is a link to the Ph.Ds and biologists that make up the EBTJV, basically our planets leading authority on brook trout in their native range. Just tell them your credentials and that their stronghold map got Pine and Kettle wrong so we can get this fixed and get back on track. Did you think I just selected those streams because i like to fish them lol? Of course not, I went to the fisheries science.

Who we are — EBTJV

EBTJV steering committee members and staff

easternbrooktrout.org

 

[Fish Sticks]

While Big Spring isn't ideal in terms of a "healthy population," (lack of tributaries, movement barrier, length/size) it's one of the only limestone streams in the state that wouldn't be fully occupied by nonnative species (if it were managed that way). It's also the largest limestone stream in the state that could be an allopatric brook trout stream for most of its length. Given its history as a world-renowned brook trout stream, efforts should be taken to return it to that status since, aside from nonnative trout, it's in better shape habitat-wise than it has been in decades.

So does the Savage.

You have to get over this idea that because a river gets too warm to support brook trout for three months out of the year that it's of no use to brook trout. Mainstems are a critical component of a brook trout population's long-term resilience and genetic diversity. Not because they live in it 12 months of the year, but because they live in it for 6-9 months when they need it most (over winter). Mainstem conditions from November - May are better for brook trout due to food availability, milder temperatures, lack of anchor ice (generally), and larger habitat. The reality is mainstem conditions are conducive to trout survival for more months out of the year than they're not. That applies to more than just brook trout and is exactly why PFBC recently made all waters downstream of STW C&R after labor day-opening day the following year.

Agreed big speing should be managed for wild native brook trout, what I was saying was it wasn’t a good PA example of the savage but for the reasons silver fox mentioned it makes alot of sense to manage for native brook trout. I was just trying to point out we could have something like the savage here.