caddisflyer
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If I recall the upper Savage also is stocked with Rainbows and Browns? At least it was as of a few years ago when I fished it. And yes it has a lot of nice Brook Trout.
Pennsylvania's Best Brook Trout Waters?
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caddisflyer
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How about Antes Run near Jersey Shore? That would seem to have all the requirements you are looking for and is a limestoner as well.
Fish Sticks
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I think its 500 rainbows once or twice a year in the lake area but no browns stocked. They find a “micro population” of browns that is enough to count on one hand i believe in the whole upper watershed every few years and some years none. They never seem to take and I have read some articles that suggest that there can be “biologic or biotic resistance” in terms of a high density of native trout being protective against a lower number of invaders. I even read an article about the paradox of trout being native and outcompeted and the same trout being an invader else where and outcompeting the same trout displacing them in their own native range. This article suggested that in some cases its likely that we son’t need to remove every lst invasive trout but simply “shift the balance” and the native trout could likely then expell the rest or atleast supress them greatly to a low stable less harmful level. This is why i advocate so hard against stocking. But yea i wouldnt be suprised if this resistance is whats going on on the savage river. Think the articles from above published by Dr. phraedra Budy et al.
Fish Sticks
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I found the article talking about instead of complete eradication thinking about just rebalancing the ratio. Fascinating Mind blowing article covers most north american trout species and its free in its entirety and ya don’t have to be a PhD to understand it which is nice. I always wonder if stoping stocking alone in some of these streams would be enough to rebalance them.
Quoted from article
“
Less traditional options for management of Brown Trout are promising and wor- thy of further study (Budy and Gaeta 2017). First, biotic resistance (Elton 1958), expressed as high density of native Cutthroat Trout, is the mechanism limiting ex- pansion and establishment of Brown Trout into upper headwaters of western U.S. streams. Although Brown Trout are unaffected by high density of native Cutthroat Trout, Cutthroat Trout performance increases with increasing density of conspecific species. Therefore, if Cutthroat Trout density is high enough, Brown Trout may not be able to expand, which is promising for native fish management, The potential for biotic resistance suggests that shifting the balance of predominance back to native fish may be sufficient, rather than trying to eradicate Brown Trout. Second, nonna- tive Brown Trout have difficulty passing American beaver Castor canadensis dams that do not impede native Cutthroat Trout (Lokteff et al. 2013). This presents a poten- tially promising management option for passive stream restoration across the western United States (e.g., Pollock et al. 2015), as beaver dam densities increase in the future. Third, natural large-scale wildfire can be used to reset native trout stream ecosystems (Chapter 18). After a fire that may kill many of the Brown Trout present, any surviving Brown Trout can be removed and streams restocked with native trout. In such cases, fire can help with public support because public agencies are not directly responsible for removing Brown Trout, but they provide the means to reestablish fishing opportu- nities with native trout in a postfire environment. In the western United States, more than 80% of anglers do not prefer Brown Trout to other trout as long as they can fish in a mountain stream to catch trout (Budy and Gaeta 2017). This general angler at- titude enables Brown Trout removal in conjunction with native trout conservation (Saunders et al. 2014).
McIntosh et al. (2011) described four key issues for managers and scientists to ad- dress for future control of Brown Trout as invaders and for minimizing their negative effects. First, the mechanisms and geographic scope of effect of Brown Trout on in- vaded habitats must be characterized (most studies are from a few countries). Second, the extent to which Brown Trout are actively invading new habitats must be moni- tored because contemporary distributional boundaries are not likely static. A third key issue is the need to obtain sustained financial support to manage Brown Trout as a pest species. Last, McIntosh et al. (2011) called for reconciliation of recreational angling and conservation values.”
The wild trout population of Antes Run is brown trout, not brook trout. And it's nearly all on private land.
Fish Sticks
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I am not familiar with that particular stream, I would think the west branch of the Susquehanna would be good above the lake as well since there is still some relative acidity there but the watershed level managment model working in these other states is all dependent on minimal to no stocking at all in most cases of invasive trout species. It may get harder in the west branch as we continue down the current path because if stocking continues in the face of acid mine remediation we know that is one of the worst things you can do. Stocking should be absolutely banned where AMD remediation is done and studies in the west branch on kratzer run in the west branch done by SRBC’s Tom Clark have clearly demonstrated that. This really cool video details this if you skip to about 9.5 minutes and listen for a minute or two.
silverfox
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No brown trout are stocked in the upper Savage. Rainbows and yellow rainbows are stocked in a stretch of the mainstem downstream of Poplar Lick (lowest point in the watershed for the original brook trout conservation zone) to the lake, however, they don't last long as they're either harvested or move into the lake never to be seen again. I have caught rainbows in tributaries, and in one case, a significant distance from the stocking point. I've communicated that with DNR staff and they keep a close eye on the fate of the stocked rainbows to make sure they're not establishing a population or surviving longer than intended.
As fishsticks mentioned, for some reason, a very small population of self sustaining brown trout has been documented sporatically during sampling in the upper watershed, but to date they've been unable to establish a "viable" population. Also as fishsticks mentioned, it's likely that the density of brook trout prevents the brown trout from establishing a population. That's the theory anyway.
It's also worth mentioning that these signs are posted throughout the stocked section of the mainstem which educate anglers about the regulations to protect brook trout.
Upstream of Poplar lick and in all tributaries that enter the lake, these signs are posted:
Does anyone have any pH and alkalinity numbers for the upper Savage and its tributaries?
And does anyone know of a geology map of the upper Savage watershed?
I Googled but couldn't find that info.
The geology and resulting pH and alkalinity are often very explanatory of the distribution of brook trout vs browns and rainbows.
silverfox
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I'm not sure, but if I had to wager a guess based on the number of hemlocks and inert sandstone I've encountered personally throughout most of the watershed, I'd say it probably does lean more toward a naturally low pH w/ low buffering capacity in general.
caddisflyer
Well-known member
Is Rauchtown Run the same stream as Antes? My understanding is that they are? Class A wild Brown and Brook so says PA fish comm. Posted signs are all marked by same name. Some trust of some kind as I recall. Posted tight and likely not all on their land from what I could see.
lycoflyfisher
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Topographically yes, but it's a limestone area. Rauchtown sinks never to be seen again not too far below the state park. Antes creek originates on private property from one of the largest springs in Pennsylvania. The sources of the spring are not entirely well understood as groundwater movement in Karsten geology can be quite complex.
caddisflyer
Well-known member
So Rauchtown is not really a limestone creek but Antes is. Very interesting.
Do you know anything about all the posting? I have rarely seen a stream so solidly posted as Antes. it seemed to me that all the signs had the same name on them? Couldn't figure out how they could own all that diverse land along creek. Plenty of nice fish in it I know that.
sixfootfenwick
Well-known member
Fishing club.
Money talks
wildtrout2
Well-known member
Apparently the land owners know that too. 😉
caddisflyer
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I have never seen anyone fishing it.
sixfootfenwick
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wildtrout2
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They mention a "fishing derby". Does that suggest they stock lightning trout?
pcray1231
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I'd guess it means they stock trout, no comment on species, or whether they stock the whole thing or a specific section. Although under tracker they list all "4" types of trout, including the yellow ones. If that's meaningful or just an ID thing I dunno.
Swattie87
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To clarify, Rauchtown and its tribs are small forested freestone streams. Rauchtown from the one time I fished it, above the SP, appeared to be a roughly 50/50 Brookie/Brown mix. It was meh. I didn’t have a strong desire to fish it again since, and haven’t.
Rauchtown then sinks into limestone geology as noted shortly below the SP, and presumably becomes part of the flow that emerges from the spring several miles to the north as Antes Creek - Along with the water draining the remainder of the bowl like basin to the north and east of where Rauchtown sinks. That whole bowl is underlain by limestone, and presumably that whole watershed emerges all at once as a full on limestoner as Antes Creek, and then cuts through the mountain gap along 44 to the West Branch. I’ve never fished Antes, as it’s high in the running for the most tightly posted stream in PA, but from what I gather it’s a very good wild Brown Trout fishery from the emergence of the spring to its mouth.
But, in the case of Rauchtown and its surface flow above and through the SP area, it’s all freestone geology until it sinks. There’s no surface flow for a distance of 3 or 4 miles until the spring that emerges as Antes.
In that general area, this is fairly common. Streams originate as freestone streams in the mountains, then sink into limestone geology when they hit the valley floor, to re-emerge somewhere further downstream in the watershed via a spring as a limestoner. Honey Creek is very similar for instance, and emerges all at once from a large spring after its tribs have sunk further upstream, and there are numerous small streams that do this in the BFC and Spring Creek watersheds as well.
Rauchtown then sinks into limestone geology as noted shortly below the SP, and presumably becomes part of the flow that emerges from the spring several miles to the north as Antes Creek - Along with the water draining the remainder of the bowl like basin to the north and east of where Rauchtown sinks. That whole bowl is underlain by limestone, and presumably that whole watershed emerges all at once as a full on limestoner as Antes Creek, and then cuts through the mountain gap along 44 to the West Branch. I’ve never fished Antes, as it’s high in the running for the most tightly posted stream in PA, but from what I gather it’s a very good wild Brown Trout fishery from the emergence of the spring to its mouth.
But, in the case of Rauchtown and its surface flow above and through the SP area, it’s all freestone geology until it sinks. There’s no surface flow for a distance of 3 or 4 miles until the spring that emerges as Antes.
In that general area, this is fairly common. Streams originate as freestone streams in the mountains, then sink into limestone geology when they hit the valley floor, to re-emerge somewhere further downstream in the watershed via a spring as a limestoner. Honey Creek is very similar for instance, and emerges all at once from a large spring after its tribs have sunk further upstream, and there are numerous small streams that do this in the BFC and Spring Creek watersheds as well.
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silverfox
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Interesting. So does that club stock Antes creek? It's Class A brown?
The geology there looks fascinating.
