Pennsylvania's Best Brook Trout Waters?

[Fish Sticks]

I don't think any of those fish are stockers. The post-restoration surveys of big spring showed a huge increase in YoY downstream of the ditch.

The ridiculous food supply of Big Spring gives you fish that have bigger bodies than you'd expect, making them appear similar to hatchery fish. But there's nothing wrong with any of the fins on any of those fish. Just my opinion.

Yea the problem is even if they are wild born or hatchery origin, which i believe there is alot of both, that there is no life history or genetic adaptations that allow brook trout to be as successful in Big spring as a proper reintroduction translocation would have been. When that PFBC hatchery extirpated those brook trout they were replaced with ill suited hatchery fish with no adaptations. They persist because its one of the best temperature/habitat/food abundance combinations in a small area in the state for native brook trout.

However, fish that are more genetically homogeneous or less fit have documented lower amounts in some cases with growth, fertility, and survival.

There could be competition advantages over non native species with higher fitness, there could be improved fertility with higher fitness. And hatchery genes/lack of fitness can risk a populations long term survival/increase chance of extirpation.

Here is a paper published by Dr. Shannon White I just read a few days ago. It is basically discussing how important proper genetics are when considering a reintroduction and provides recommendations to managers who are trying to execute successful reintroduction. For anyone who is interested in what the true potential of big spring could be with a proper reintroduction this paper sheds light on how genetics can be used.

Before genetic analysis became the gold standard for doing reintroduction managers would select wild native brook trout from
Near by that had a similar life history (survival strategy-like free stone, limestone, lake run ect.). Genetic diversity is good to a point. Genes can be adapted to regional/local scales. If you throw in harchery genes, not only are these genes tailored just to grow a fat aggressive poorly survivable fish, but they can outbreed regionally or locally adapted genes that may have been acquired over a million years and if wnough introgression of hatchery genes happens they can be gone in relatively speaking a blink of an eye compared to how long it took to aquire them.

Big spring did not even get a translocation of wild fish with similar life history from near by(second best option)

Big spring got/still gets hatchery trash. like so many streams in PA there is such ample potential with management for conservation but its being managed for maximizing license sales like every other mile of running water in this state. Disgraceful.

https://easternbrooktrout.org/science-data/science-publications/using-genetic-data-to-advance-stream-fish-reintroduction-science-a-case-study-in-brook-trout/at_download/file

Enjoy the article. You can get away with just reading discussion to see how much is SUPPOSED to go into a reintroduction to make it successful.

 

[silverfox]

Ahh. So the big Brook Trout I was so excited about in Big Spring are stockies. Dang.

Below the ditch anyway.

 

[silverfox]

I don't think any of those fish are stockers. The post-restoration surveys of big spring showed a huge increase in YoY downstream of the ditch.

The ridiculous food supply of Big Spring gives you fish that have bigger bodies than you'd expect, making them appear similar to hatchery fish. But there's nothing wrong with any of the fins on any of those fish. Just my opinion.

It's hard to say for sure. I know they still stock BS with brook trout every spring and there are some features on those fish that lead me to believe they're stocked. At least two of them have a foreshortened operculum which is typical of hatchery brook trout. The one shot of the belly if you look at the pelvic fins, and anal fin, there's an odd "break" in the leading rays that looks like a possible growth issue. I'm just not convinced.

As I said though, in all honesty, they're cool fish and I'm happy to have caught them. I've caught a lot just like those, which is another reason I suspect they're stockers.

 

[troutbert]

It's hard to say for sure. I know they still stock BS with brook trout every spring and there are some features on those fish that lead me to believe they're stocked. At least two of them have a foreshortened operculum which is typical of hatchery brook trout. The one shot of the belly if you look at the pelvic fins, and anal fin, there's an odd "break" in the leading rays that looks like a possible growth issue. I'm just not convinced.

As I said though, in all honesty, they're cool fish and I'm happy to have caught them. I've caught a lot just like those, which is another reason I suspect they're stockers.

I agree that some of them look like stockies, for the same reasons you stated.

But who is stocking brook trout in Big Spring? I thought the PFBC said they were going to totally quit raising and stocking brook trout.

 

[caddisflyer]

I agree that some of them look like stockies, for the same reasons you stated.

But who is stocking brook trout in Big Spring? I thought the PFBC said they were going to totally quit raising and stocking brook trout.

Maybe the same mystery people who are putting them in Kettle.

 

[silverfox]

I agree that some of them look like stockies, for the same reasons you stated.

But who is stocking brook trout in Big Spring? I thought the PFBC said they were going to totally quit raising and stocking brook trout.

It’s PFBC. I guess it’s a double edged sword? Stock brook trout and further jack up the genetics, or stock rainbows? God forbid they just stop stocking it.

 

[Dave_W]

Those are wild fish.
Big Spring brookies are heavy bodied and often have kinks in the white forward edge of their pelvic fins (a unique quality I don't typically see elsewhere). You can see this if you look carefully at the fish in the upper photo. It's pretty common.

There were some large stocked STs below the FFO this year - I kept one as a taxidermy project - but those fish tend to get caught out fast.

The PFBC was stocking ST fingerlings in the FFO section back in the early oughts after the hatchery closed. This was discontinued around 2006 when fin clip surveys revealed few of the fingerlings survived and it became obvious that the wild population was thriving

 

[Mike]

“ fin clip surveys revealed few of the fingerlings survived”

No surprise there.

 

[silverfox]

Those are wild fish.
Big Spring brookies are heavy bodied and often have kinks in the white forward edge of their pelvic fins (a unique quality I don't typically see elsewhere). You can see this if you look carefully at the fish in the upper photo. It's pretty common.

There were some large stocked STs below the FFO this year - I kept one as a taxidermy project - but those fish tend to get caught out fast.

The PFBC was stocking ST fingerlings in the FFO section back in the early oughts after the hatchery closed. This was discontinued around 2006 when fin clip surveys revealed few of the fingerlings survived and it became obvious that the wild population was thriving

The thing is, I've caught numerous obviously stocked brook trout in Big Spring. Many of them were caught a long time after stocking. Here's one from September 5th that is clearly stocked, in my opinion. This fish was well above Nealy Rd. In fact, it was upstream of the parking lot on T351.

 

[silverfox]

I agree that some of them look like stockies, for the same reasons you stated.

But who is stocking brook trout in Big Spring? I thought the PFBC said they were going to totally quit raising and stocking brook trout.

Stocking info:

From 2021:

 

[Fish Sticks]

To troutberts statement about cessation of stocking hatchery brook trout i know they have cut back a large amount and there have been statements to individuals from PFBC that brook trout production is being dialed way back but has anyone seen a formal statement in a publicly recognizable area(not fish sticks stumbling across obscure PDF at 11pm with 5 word sentence mention). Has this been posted on social media alerting public of dangers of stocking native brook trout?has it made it into the annual booklet you get with in store purchase of license? Or are they just partially changing it without educating the public why or admitting why?? Wheres the public education??? When a bunch of people notice with no idea why and get ticked off PFBC will site “strong opposition” for anything else on stocking reform just because it continues to engage in education and awareness in these people socially conditioned to terrible fisheries management. Could their social media teach us something other than why we should buy a license or about the invasive species they feel comfortable acknowledging????

Yes if your thinking “wait they are phasing out hatchery brook trout due to risks native brook trout but they still stock big spring????” Your hear with the rest of us.

 

[Mike]

If you are going by color alone, in Big Spring that is within the range of wild female ST colorations. The tail does look questionable, possibly being “ratty” in the trailing edge of the lower lobe, but I would have to see a better view to pass some judgement. A lower lobe of the tail on a wild female could be damaged by the previous year’s redd construction, but should be healed up by the following year.

 

[silverfox]

If you are going by color alone, in Big Spring that is within the range of wild female ST colorations. The tail does look questionable, possibly being “ratty” in the trailing edge of the lower lobe, but I would have to see a better view to pass some judgement. A lower lobe of the tail on a wild female could be damaged by the previous year’s redd construction, but should be healed up by the following year.

No. Color means nothing to me. I've seen colorful stocked brook trout and washed-out wild brook trout. i.e:

I'm looking at the malformed dorsal, ratty anal fin, compressed and ratty caudal, and the broken black line on the leading edge of the anal fin.

 

[troutbert]

There was a lot of publicity about brook trout gill lice, which is the main reason brook trout production and stocking was cut back.

But I thought they were ENDING brook trout production. Apparently they are cutting back, but not ending it. Thanks for this info.

 

[Fish Sticks]

There was a lot of publicity about brook trout gill lice, which is the main reason brook trout production and stocking was cut back.

But I thought they were ENDING brook trout production. Apparently they are cutting back, but not ending it. Thanks for this info.

I saw the publicity on gill lice but the only thing I saw tied to that specifically was increased measures at harcheries/authorization. Not reduction in brook trout stocking, i could be wrong or have missed something you saw?

Again I have not even seen any large scale announcements about the brook trout production being cutback let alone specific reasons communicated clearly with public.

 

[silverfox]

To troutberts statement about cessation of stocking hatchery brook trout i know they have cut back a large amount and there have been statements to individuals from PFBC that brook trout production is being dialed way back but has anyone seen a formal statement in a publicly recognizable area(not fish sticks stumbling across obscure PDF at 11pm with 5 word sentence mention). Has this been posted on social media alerting public of dangers of stocking native brook trout?has it made it into the annual booklet you get with in store purchase of license? Or are they just partially changing it without educating the public why or admitting why?? Wheres the public education??? When a bunch of people notice with no idea why and get ticked off PFBC will site “strong opposition” for anything else on stocking reform just because it continues to engage in education and awareness in these people socially conditioned to terrible fisheries management. Could their social media teach us something other than why we should buy a license or about the invasive species they feel comfortable acknowledging????

Yes if your thinking “wait they are phasing out hatchery brook trout due to risks native brook trout but they still stock big spring????” Your hear with the rest of us.

I've never seen this openly promoted. I suspect this is the document they send when people inquire about the reduction in brook trout stocking.

https://www.fishandboat.com/Fish/Stocking/Documents/TroutStocking-FactSheet.pdf

Unfortunately, the issues of introgression and disease are mentioned as a sideline in this document. Survival rate and rate of emigration seem to be the primary driving factors outlined, which doesn't do much to convey the issues with stocking brook trout over wild brook trout. One out of 4 paragraphs (also the smallest/shortest paragraph) addresses biotic issues, while the other 3 are all about angling-related factors.

 

[silverfox]

If you are going by color alone, in Big Spring that is within the range of wild female ST colorations. The tail does look questionable, possibly being “ratty” in the trailing edge of the lower lobe, but I would have to see a better view to pass some judgement. A lower lobe of the tail on a wild female could be damaged by the previous year’s redd construction, but should be healed up by the following year.

Here's another view of that fish.

 

[Mike]

No. Color means nothing to me. I've seen colorful stocked brook trout and washed-out wild brook trout. i.e:
View attachment 1641227742

View attachment 1641227743

I'm looking at the malformed dorsal, ratty anal fin, compressed and ratty caudal, and the broken black line on the leading edge of the anal fin.

OK, so now that I have blown it up to a larger view I see the caudal fin and anal fin rattiness. I can’t tell a thing about the dorsal fin because it can look deformed when anglers hold their fish in that way, having seen scores of pics like that. The leading edge of the anal fin re the broken black coloration is meaningless to me, as it could also be natural color variation. The rattiness of the fins, however, suggests one of two things: it is a very recently stocked fish, not one from the spring (the ragged edges would have healed prior to Sept) or it is an early spawner and the fins have already been damaged by redd construction Lesser possibilities are damage from agonistic behavior or angler handling in landing nets.

 

[Mike]

OK, so now that I have blown it up to a larger view I see the caudal fin and anal fin rattiness. I can’t tell a thing about the dorsal fin because it can look deformed when anglers hold their fish in that way, having seen scores of pics like that. The leading edge of the anal fin re the broken black coloration is meaningless to me, as it could also be natural color variation. The rattiness of the fins, however, suggests one of two things: it is a very recently stocked fish, not one from the spring (the ragged edges would have healed prior to Sept) or it is an early spawner and the fins have already been damaged by redd construction Lesser possibilities are damage from agonistic behavior or angler handling in landing nets.

If you showed that to me in spring, I would say it was a freshly stocked trout. By Sept a spring stocked trout looking like that would be highly unusual in my experience. That’s about all I can say about it from a picture.

 

[silverfox]

OK, so now that I have blown it up to a larger view I see the caudal fin and anal fin rattiness. I can’t tell a thing about the dorsal fin because it can look deformed when anglers hold their fish in that way, having seen scores of pics like that. The leading edge of the anal fin re the broken black coloration is meaningless to me, as it could also be natural color variation. The rattiness of the fins, however, suggests one of two things: it is a very recently stocked fish, not one from the spring (the ragged edges would have healed prior to Sept) or it is an early spawner and the fins have already been damaged by redd construction Lesser possibilities are damage from agonistic behavior or angler handling in landing nets.

This is what I'm looking at on the dorsal.