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stephenb
Member
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2020
- Messages
- 48
I've been following the thread and have not seen anyone dump on someone for being able to spend on the expensive gear.
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troutbert
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
- Messages
- 10,798
Forward snobbery is far more common than reverse snobbery.
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Nocktavius
Well-known member
Guy is the bait chucker of fly fishermen. Of course you don’t need an expensive rod if you’re gonna be bashing a 3/8” tungsten cone head off of it. Personally I like the aesthetics, lightness and quality that a well made American fly rod affords. And don’t forget that high price tag also includes the life insurance policy that they’ll replace it if I slam it in a car door.
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FlyLikeTheFish
New member
Few thoughts as this has come up in another online fly forum I frequent.
1. If you can afford it and it brings you happiness, who cares? They aren't a need or requirement, but can enhance the satisfaction of the sport for sure. I personally won't spend hundred on a custom painted reel, and I've seen many that do and I'm happy for them.
2. A good chunk of the higher priced rods (sub $1k) of yesteryear would be at or above $1k today if you account for inflation and increased business expense. Something to keep in mind
3. A good friend once said to me regarding hunting, "a top end gun will not make someone a better shooter, but it will take a great shooter and help them be better". In my experience, that advice is generally true. I've taken a lot of game with a cheap mossberg 12ga, though my benelli makes it a lot easier and more enjoyable.
4. On folks who can't cast 30' and are wearing a $2k+ outfit on the stream, I'll add in a number of hobbies of mine in the past I've started out with lower end gear. After a while find out I'm committed to the sport/hobby, and then end up spending tons more when I upgrade. I don't begrudge the fly fisher who is learning on expensive gear, chances are they'll grow into it and if it brings them more joy to stay in our wonderful sport then I'm all the more for it.
I've fished cheap rods and expensive rods, and for me the feel of a higher end rod is fantastic. I like the finishes more as well, and for me that has value. Some people could fish a duck taped rod and aestetic wise wouldn't care, and that doesn't bother me a bit for them. I'm sure there's someone out there who can out fish me with a Walmart setup, and I tip my hat to them.
I have an Orvis Recon, Marryat Tactical Nymph Pro, and an Asquith plus a couple TFO's for salmon. I love my rods, and when the next gen of Helios come out I'll probably snag a H3D on closeout. I also fish more than just PA waters, where my Recon alone can handle pretty much anything in PA. Reels I'm much cheaper on, because I am one of those that feel it's only there to hold line (I don't salt water fish...yet).
1. If you can afford it and it brings you happiness, who cares? They aren't a need or requirement, but can enhance the satisfaction of the sport for sure. I personally won't spend hundred on a custom painted reel, and I've seen many that do and I'm happy for them.
2. A good chunk of the higher priced rods (sub $1k) of yesteryear would be at or above $1k today if you account for inflation and increased business expense. Something to keep in mind
3. A good friend once said to me regarding hunting, "a top end gun will not make someone a better shooter, but it will take a great shooter and help them be better". In my experience, that advice is generally true. I've taken a lot of game with a cheap mossberg 12ga, though my benelli makes it a lot easier and more enjoyable.
4. On folks who can't cast 30' and are wearing a $2k+ outfit on the stream, I'll add in a number of hobbies of mine in the past I've started out with lower end gear. After a while find out I'm committed to the sport/hobby, and then end up spending tons more when I upgrade. I don't begrudge the fly fisher who is learning on expensive gear, chances are they'll grow into it and if it brings them more joy to stay in our wonderful sport then I'm all the more for it.
I've fished cheap rods and expensive rods, and for me the feel of a higher end rod is fantastic. I like the finishes more as well, and for me that has value. Some people could fish a duck taped rod and aestetic wise wouldn't care, and that doesn't bother me a bit for them. I'm sure there's someone out there who can out fish me with a Walmart setup, and I tip my hat to them.
I have an Orvis Recon, Marryat Tactical Nymph Pro, and an Asquith plus a couple TFO's for salmon. I love my rods, and when the next gen of Helios come out I'll probably snag a H3D on closeout. I also fish more than just PA waters, where my Recon alone can handle pretty much anything in PA. Reels I'm much cheaper on, because I am one of those that feel it's only there to hold line (I don't salt water fish...yet).
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Silent Ocelot
Well-known member
I was expecting a few vintage IM6 era Winstons from yo, tisk tisk.
Bamboozle
Well-known member
Just wondering, does the conversation regarding the folks who can't cast 30' and are wearing a $100+ outfit on the stream ever come up?
If so is/was that conversation started by $2K+ crowd...?
Just busting them...
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Silent Ocelot
Well-known member
I think line selection is as almost, if not equal to, as important as rod selection. Dialing in one's rod for the desired fishing activity and what the angler likes is critical, hence why I have spent countless hours lawn casting. You can also get a variety of lines of fish off of one rod and make one fly rod very versatile. Fly lines have expensive nowadays and even I, a man looking to constantly spend as much money as I possibly can into the sport, cannot justify the more expensive lines. I did buy a $130 line from Orvis but probably won't do that again. Fly lines are a wear item, like waders, so I can't justify spending a whole lot on line. $50-$80 is reasonable for line.
Though if you have more rods you may spend less on line per year as the more rods you have the less you can spend fishing one particular rod, and thusly wear out that line at a much slower rate. I only have two lines that I will swap out annually and they both pertain to trout nymphing set ups. I don't buy new lines for warmwater species.
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Silent Ocelot
Well-known member
Explain to me how you snapped a rod towards the hilt and how you lost a reel. I think the takeaway from this post is gross user error.
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Bamboozle
Well-known member
One thing I'd like to add to the conversation as someone who unapologetically likes stuff Kelly can't justify...
A LOT of times, the rods that are/were readily available at whatever price point doesn't upset the hoi palloi just don't suit folks like me for several reasons. That forces our hands...
Case in point, I own more than a few Winston graphite rods that were top dogs when I bought them a long time ago. I purchased them when I was transitioning from bamboo exclusively back to owning a few graphite sticks.
Winston's offerings were the only graphite rods I tried that suited my rod action preference and came in the lengths/line weights I wanted.
Today, I wouldn't take a new Winston or most new graphite glass rods as a gift...
The same thing goes for my fiberglass and bamboo rods purchased new. I tried but couldn't find what I wanted action-wise or length/line size-wise and I didn't want something vintage for more than a few reasons.
Because of that, much of what I own in glass and a few bamboo rods are custom from builders planing/rolling their own blanks or building on custom blanks. As a result none of these rods came in at low(er) price points than "factory rods" at the time I bought them.
The same thing goes for reels. With the exception of a very few combos, I only use click & pawl reels in freshwater and I like my combos static balanced despite how many people say it doesn't matter. I also won't buy reels made in Asia just because I won't.
That doesn't leave you with a lot of choices if you want to buy a new reel...
Bottom line, sometimes there is a method to the madness of spending more $$$ on tackle than required to catch a fish...
A LOT of times, the rods that are/were readily available at whatever price point doesn't upset the hoi palloi just don't suit folks like me for several reasons. That forces our hands...
Case in point, I own more than a few Winston graphite rods that were top dogs when I bought them a long time ago. I purchased them when I was transitioning from bamboo exclusively back to owning a few graphite sticks.
Winston's offerings were the only graphite rods I tried that suited my rod action preference and came in the lengths/line weights I wanted.
Today, I wouldn't take a new Winston or most new graphite glass rods as a gift...
The same thing goes for my fiberglass and bamboo rods purchased new. I tried but couldn't find what I wanted action-wise or length/line size-wise and I didn't want something vintage for more than a few reasons.
Because of that, much of what I own in glass and a few bamboo rods are custom from builders planing/rolling their own blanks or building on custom blanks. As a result none of these rods came in at low(er) price points than "factory rods" at the time I bought them.
The same thing goes for reels. With the exception of a very few combos, I only use click & pawl reels in freshwater and I like my combos static balanced despite how many people say it doesn't matter. I also won't buy reels made in Asia just because I won't.
That doesn't leave you with a lot of choices if you want to buy a new reel...
Bottom line, sometimes there is a method to the madness of spending more $$$ on tackle than required to catch a fish...
The_Sasquatch
Well-known member
Dude if they can't cast 30', it's clearly the fault of the Orvis Encounter or whatever....Just wondering, does the conversation regarding the folks who can't cast 30' and are wearing a $100+ outfit on the stream ever come up?
If so is/was that conversation started by $2K+ crowd...?
Just busting them...
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Silent Ocelot
Well-known member
To Piggyback on what Bam said I too choose rods based on an ergonomic/styling reason. I just so happen to like higher end rods and think they are worth it to merely from an artistic perspective, and they are also a joy to fish.
From what I've gathered about higher end rods is that they are typically lighter, made with better components, more responsive, look better, and feel better. I'm a detailed-oriented person so I pick up on the subtleties.
The performance advantages in higher end rods are negligible, but over the course of many fishing hours their performance advantages are recognized and deemed important. I have also noticed a slight durability increase in higher end rods. Funny enough, I have found the biggest haters of high end rods don't even own or have casted a more expensive rod, thus proving their ignorance.
I have never outright bought a rod for a $1,000. I mostly hunt bids on eBay or other buying platforms, but the cost isn't really that bad when you can consider the rod has a potential to last one a lifetime if it is well taken care of and you aren't completely oblivious to your surroundings. I don't see how a rod could even be broken in a car door but that is just me. Waders and fly lines have wear, and yes rods due to at a much slower rate (I doubt one could cast a rod long enough to wear down the guides) so I won't throw a lot of cash towards waders and/or line, unless I really like the line. I have a saying "buy once, cry once". This philosophy has helped me in many aspects of my life beyond fly fishing. I've witnessed my friend's dad's Redington break twice, I have yet to see any component of my arsenal fail, and I have an H3 that got stepped on and it still fished just fine!
As to justify the cost from a marketing perspective, one has to also consider the R&D and material cost that goes into some of these rods. Yes there is the fly fishing markup, but you still have to factor in costs, especially if new materials are being implement and a new design is being drawn up. Good rod builders are going to want a good portion of money for their cutting edge designs so to simply say an expensive rod just has a Made in USA stamp on it is silly. The current state of the fly fishing industry has reached near F-1 levels in terms of the pursuit to build the ultimate rod. Once you reach a certain level of performance it takes a lot of money and research to make marginal gains. These gains may not be noticed by the average fisher, but they may help them and the gains will be noticed by a more proficient angler that will be able to exploit these capabilities.
I think the title of this vid is offensive. A better title would be "I don't think the cost of high performance rods is worth it because I don't think the marginal performance gains are worth the cost". Though I suppose when you are making a YouTube video it is good to use trigger words to get more views, thus boosting the channel. I also think the video has an underlying theme of trying to take potential buyers away from the high end rod market to peddle them a brand with a lower cost such as TFO. I respect Kelly as an angler but posting this kind of content doesn't serve a benefit and I would be ashamed to be in a video such as this.
At the end of the day people are going to buy what they want to buy. I will continue to buy the gear that I want to buy and am more tempted to buy nice things merely out of spite to this very video and the thought processes behind it, something I have dubbed "hate buying". I just don't understand why do people hate nice things...
"You can't tell a man how good your Porsche GT3 RS is when they drive a Toyota Corolla."
From what I've gathered about higher end rods is that they are typically lighter, made with better components, more responsive, look better, and feel better. I'm a detailed-oriented person so I pick up on the subtleties.
The performance advantages in higher end rods are negligible, but over the course of many fishing hours their performance advantages are recognized and deemed important. I have also noticed a slight durability increase in higher end rods. Funny enough, I have found the biggest haters of high end rods don't even own or have casted a more expensive rod, thus proving their ignorance.
I have never outright bought a rod for a $1,000. I mostly hunt bids on eBay or other buying platforms, but the cost isn't really that bad when you can consider the rod has a potential to last one a lifetime if it is well taken care of and you aren't completely oblivious to your surroundings. I don't see how a rod could even be broken in a car door but that is just me. Waders and fly lines have wear, and yes rods due to at a much slower rate (I doubt one could cast a rod long enough to wear down the guides) so I won't throw a lot of cash towards waders and/or line, unless I really like the line. I have a saying "buy once, cry once". This philosophy has helped me in many aspects of my life beyond fly fishing. I've witnessed my friend's dad's Redington break twice, I have yet to see any component of my arsenal fail, and I have an H3 that got stepped on and it still fished just fine!
As to justify the cost from a marketing perspective, one has to also consider the R&D and material cost that goes into some of these rods. Yes there is the fly fishing markup, but you still have to factor in costs, especially if new materials are being implement and a new design is being drawn up. Good rod builders are going to want a good portion of money for their cutting edge designs so to simply say an expensive rod just has a Made in USA stamp on it is silly. The current state of the fly fishing industry has reached near F-1 levels in terms of the pursuit to build the ultimate rod. Once you reach a certain level of performance it takes a lot of money and research to make marginal gains. These gains may not be noticed by the average fisher, but they may help them and the gains will be noticed by a more proficient angler that will be able to exploit these capabilities.
I think the title of this vid is offensive. A better title would be "I don't think the cost of high performance rods is worth it because I don't think the marginal performance gains are worth the cost". Though I suppose when you are making a YouTube video it is good to use trigger words to get more views, thus boosting the channel. I also think the video has an underlying theme of trying to take potential buyers away from the high end rod market to peddle them a brand with a lower cost such as TFO. I respect Kelly as an angler but posting this kind of content doesn't serve a benefit and I would be ashamed to be in a video such as this.
At the end of the day people are going to buy what they want to buy. I will continue to buy the gear that I want to buy and am more tempted to buy nice things merely out of spite to this very video and the thought processes behind it, something I have dubbed "hate buying". I just don't understand why do people hate nice things...
"You can't tell a man how good your Porsche GT3 RS is when they drive a Toyota Corolla."
Bamboozle
Well-known member
Since there is so much chatter about good waders being more important a good rod, could somebody please contact Kelly Giddy-up about doing a video titled:
"$1000 Waders, and $500 Wading Shoes, Are They BS?"
"$1000 Waders, and $500 Wading Shoes, Are They BS?"
dc410
Well-known member
You might have just set yourself up with that comment. I wouldn’t recommend letting “somebody” step on that rod a second time. 😉
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mikeg126
Member
I stopped buying rods several years ago and started to build them. I don't use top name brand blanks like Sage (although they are very nice) but rather lesser known blanks (CTS). Compared to my Sage rods, my home built CTS rods perform as well or better for half the price. I am not building for show but for purpose so my attention is focused on the components and design of the blank.
At the end of the day Joe Humphreys can out fish me with a broom stick so a $1000 rod is NOT necessary and will not catch more fish. Sometimes the components are better and you get a classy inscription but that's about it.
my 2 cents...
At the end of the day Joe Humphreys can out fish me with a broom stick so a $1000 rod is NOT necessary and will not catch more fish. Sometimes the components are better and you get a classy inscription but that's about it.
my 2 cents...
caddisflyer
Well-known member
I ran over my old Winston rod and sent it to them and for a very modest fee it came back and is actually better than ever with new cork and reel seat (neither were damaged just worn and never held my old Orvis reel very well). Orvis and Winston have quality stuff and good customer service in my experience. That is also a consideration. I like dealing with a reputable company. I have other set ups that cost around $100.00 from Bass Pro and am very pleased with them too. Kelly Galloup is a long winded guy that's for sure . I tend to not pay much attention to any of his stuff.
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Sylvaneous
Active member
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2006
- Messages
- 961
All those older, favorite rods wouldn't be $1K rods today. I have an LL BEan Double L rod from the mid 90's that I still think is really good even in today's context. Over the years, I have cast rods that I thought were really good, like some by Loop that weren't super expensive. It's why I SWEAR that some companies have to make flaws in the rod, like "Make it heavier. It's too good as it is. People won't buy our flagship rod."
PennKev
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2006
- Messages
- 3,300
Have you ever met him?
I have. Once. Couldn't ask for more from a fly shop owner.
I was browsing the fly tying materials at the Slide Inn during peak fishing season. There were multiple groups of guests checking in for their stays/floats and Kelly probably spent more time chatting with me than he did with his guided clients. Big ego or not, he was not off-putting in any way and told me to help myself to the coffee if I'd like. While I was there I noticed that he also stopped and talked with everyone that came in, even if just briefly.
I wish I could say ive had the same experience with the owners/employees of certain highly regarded shops here in PA. Maybe I hit it on a "good" day with Kelly Galloup, but first impressions do count for a lot, and that was a good first impression.
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falcon
Well-known member
A couple of years ago I attended the Flyfishing and Wingshooting Show in Blakeslee. The show has been discontinued. Kelly gave a free presentation on Streamer Fishing. He and the presentation was a lot of fun. I chatted with him afterwards and thought he was really pleasant. I have emailed him with questions or opinions and he always responded in detail in a timely manner.
