Fishing in fall and winter (with as little impact on spawning as possible)

[Mike]

Regarding the abstract provided in #18 above, the following quote recaptured my interest as this discussion proceeded, keying in on stocking Brown trout….
“Intensive annual stocking of Brown Trout could eliminate resident Brook Trout in less than a decade. Ecological differences, harvest behavior, and other habitat changes can exacerbate Brook Trout losses. Custom stocking scenarios with Brown Trout introductions at relatively low proportions of resident Brook Trout populations may be able to sustain healthy populations of both species within their present range.”

While there are some complaints here about the past and continued stocking of brown trout (BT) in Pa, it is worth noting that in most cases they had been stocked at what I would call low densities for at least a decade as RT production increased, often only comprising 10% of a preseason load and in my experience during a part of that time period, generally maxing out at 30% of a load except possibly in some circumstances. With my more limited exposure to stocking now on only about three urban/metro streams and with the substantial reduction in recent years in ST production and stocking, I’m not aware of what the general proportions are.

 

[dudemanspecial]

without scrolling up, who can tell me name of this thread?

I am starting to forget the name of the whole forum.

 

[Silent Ocelot]

I am starting to forget the name of the whole forum.

PA Fly Fish, your favorite place to argue

 

[troutbert]

Regarding the abstract provided in #18 above, the following quote recaptured my interest as this discussion proceeded, keying in on stocking Brown trout….
“Intensive annual stocking of Brown Trout could eliminate resident Brook Trout in less than a decade. Ecological differences, harvest behavior, and other habitat changes can exacerbate Brook Trout losses. Custom stocking scenarios with Brown Trout introductions at relatively low proportions of resident Brook Trout populations may be able to sustain healthy populations of both species within their present range.”

The focus on "introductions" of brown trout is off base. In the great majority of our watersheds, the brown trout were introduced over a century ago and brown trout populations have self-perpetuated ever since. There are very few places in PA where present day stocking of brown trout would create an "introduction." They are already there.

And if you stop stocking brown trout, the brown trout population will still continue. It's not at all dependent on further stocking.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Regarding the abstract provided in #18 above, the following quote recaptured my interest as this discussion proceeded, keying in on stocking Brown trout….
“Intensive annual stocking of Brown Trout could eliminate resident Brook Trout in less than a decade. Ecological differences, harvest behavior, and other habitat changes can exacerbate Brook Trout losses. Custom stocking scenarios with Brown Trout introductions at relatively low proportions of resident Brook Trout populations may be able to sustain healthy populations of both species within their present range.”

While there are some complaints here about the past and continued stocking of brown trout (BT) in Pa, it is worth noting that in most cases they had been stocked at what I would call low densities for at least a decade as RT production increased, often only comprising 10% of a preseason load and in my experience during a part of that time period, generally maxing out at 30% of a load except possibly in some circumstances. With my more limited exposure to stocking now on only about three urban/metro streams and with the substantial reduction in recent years in ST production and stocking, I’m not aware of what the general proportions are.

the private sector is really bad though. Slate run brown trout club is a perfect terrible example. There are so many rod and gun clubs that stock predominantly browns around the state and we know the coops looovvee their invasive hatchery browns.

 

[Fish Sticks]

The focus on "introductions" of brown trout is off base. In the great majority of our watersheds, the brown trout were introduced over a century ago and brown trout populations have self-perpetuated ever since. There are very few places in PA where present day stocking of brown trout would create an "introduction." They are already there.

And if you stop stocking brown trout, the brown trout population will still continue. It's not at all dependent on further stocking.

That assumes only reproduction will continue it does not factor in the effectiveness of browns competition in some situations in a stream that os suitable for brook trout that now has a 1:1 brown trout brook trout ratio or lower instead of an artificially augmented 5:1 ratio from direct stocking or running up tribs that have stocking a stream order or two downstream or further.

 

[troutbert]

Genetic drift and inbreeding depression

Is Shenandoah Park really is actually seeing brook trout declines, it's very unlikely that that's the reason.

 

[silverfox]

Above the natural barriers, what's the problem?

Worse drought causing dewatering.

 

[silverfox]

That assumes only reproduction will continue it does not factor in the effectiveness of browns competition in some situations in a stream that os suitable for brook trout that now has a 1:1 brown trout brook trout ratio or lower instead of an artificially augmented 5:1 ratio from direct stocking or running up tribs that have stocking a stream order or two downstream or further.

Or, more simply, that the only impact is from naturalized populations of BT, not the presence of nonnative trout regardless of how they got there or what species they are. Especially in places with existing populations of naturalized BT. i.e., wild BT + stocked BT & RT = greater impact.

 

[troutbert]

Worse drought causing dewatering.

That sounds likely. In PA during extreme droughts I saw long stretches of brookie streams totally dry.

 

[joebamboo]

This **** is getting old. Three or four self impressed individuals pretty much hijacking the site. Yes, we could just ignore their posts, but I think they should just establish their own whining site and be miserable together! Misery does love company!

 

[tomgamber]

 

[DomR]

This **** is getting old. Three or four self impressed individuals pretty much hijacking the site. Yes, we could just ignore their posts, but I think they should just establish their own whining site and be miserable together! Misery does love company!

It comes down to vanity, some people just need the comfort of being "right" and will verbally pound the rest into submission to get to that end. Like a lawyer, overbearing CEO, or delirious college kid.

 

[silverfox]

This **** is getting old. Three or four self impressed individuals pretty much hijacking the site. Yes, we could just ignore their posts, but I think they should just establish their own whining site and be miserable together! Misery does love company!

Isn't what you just posted whining, too? What does your post have to do with this thread?

 

[Nocktavius]

In a perhaps futile attempt to get this thread back on track:

Responsible fly fishing in fall and winter for wild trout can be summarized by simply not targeting brown trout on redds and minimizing wading in areas known to hold redds and eggs. That's it, plain and simple.

Don't go traipsing through riffled shallow areas with gravelly bottoms or areas where you can see fish chasing one another- its usually a pretty obvious thing once you've learned to spot it, and nursery stretches are actually quite few and far between in most noteworthy trout water.

Nymphing deep runs or pools, throwing streamers or nymphs in faster pocket water or tailouts that aren't appropriate substrate for spawning, throwing midges and dries to rising fish in any kind of water are all perfectly ethical and anybody who says otherwise is probably just jealous that you're out fishing and they're not. Anyway, I've yet to read a single study that connects angler pressure during the spawn and fish population decreases, and frankly in a lot of the most famous creeks where trout do spawn, a bit of population reduction would likely lead to larger fish (and more fun for me).

Don't tread on the Redd!

 

[Silent Ocelot]

Responsible fly fishing in fall and winter for wild trout can be summarized by simply not targeting brown trout on redds and minimizing wading in areas known to hold redds and eggs. That's it, plain and simple.

That includes falling onto redds too, Nock.

 

[Fish Sticks]

It would be nice if people took this same approach of caution for fall fish which everyone in our sport wades through during hendricksons and sulfurs. Why do we consider no other fish besides brown trout? What about the white suckers in april. We all tie up sucker spawn, we know what’s happening, it’s interesting how this topic only comes up for brown trout.

If you have never seen a fall fish redd their hard to miss. They build some of the largest nests in our PA streams. And they feed your brown trout.

 

[Silent Ocelot]

View attachment 1641233213

That nest looks pretty big, could be a state record fallfish guarding that. We gotta get after some fallfish next year, FS, I want a 20+ incher. Need to catch some redhorse too as I've only gotten white suckers.

 

[Fish Sticks]

That nest looks pretty big, could be a state record fallfish guarding that. We gotta get after some fallfish next year, FS, I want a 20+ incher. Need to catch some redhorse too as I've only gotten white

Love watching this every year in the mouth of “the run” every april

 

[HopBack]

You seem like you already know how to responsibly fish for trout during the winter months so I will just off that some of my best winter fishing has been post spawn in January. Pick and choose your times to fish. I like warmer days from 10am on to the afternoon.