Fishing in fall and winter (with as little impact on spawning as possible)

[silverfox]

The tone set here by a certain few sure paints a demonizing picture, regardless of intent.

Our views of wildlife have changed. We no longer view wildlife as a resource to be exploited; but rather, we view wildlife as an equal. We've anthropomorphized wildlife and sympathize with them. We've got over a century of authors romanticizing brown trout—as much time of state and federal agencies promoting them. So folks take the issue personally, and it makes them uncomfortable, which leads to conflicts in discussions and tempers flare.

This directly applies to this thread's subject and what I mentioned earlier. It's perfectly acceptable to fish for Atlantic Salmon in Iceland, Scotland, etc., when they enter rivers to spawn. A species that may go extinct within a few generations. Conversely, we put up signs in Pennsylvania advising anglers to avoid fishing for brown trout when they're spawning in the fall. A species that has spread/been spread all over the planet and occupies virtually every patch of suitable habitat that was or ever will be available. We don't have signs on Big Spring advising anglers to avoid fishing for brook trout in the fall when they're spawning.

Americans have a love affair with brown trout. So any mention of them being detrimental to anything is seen as an attack or an assault on the people who love them. Whether it's intentional or not.

 

[BradFromPotter]

Still no one has address what impact deer, bear, & other animals have walking in streams during spawning season? I would think there are more of these animals with 4 feet walking on redds then the 2 foot animals.

 

[Fish Sticks]

The future belongs to you my friend. Implying (as you have in many posts) that people can't read or are just ignorant won't make you many friends but carry on .

Thats a great way of saying “my prior statement about brookies not being able to adapt was based on my own ignorance”

 

[Fish Sticks]

There's three and one more is teetering on joining the cult

The Cult lol, spoken by a member of the see no logic Brown trout brown trout traveling pants ya ya brotherhood

 

[Fish Sticks]

The tone set here by a certain few sure paints a demonizing picture, regardless of intent.

I would say eat your brook trout in switzerland, don’t stock any trout in tazmania no matter what species, lets not put cutthroat in Arkansas tailwaters its not about salmonid favoritism. If a bunch of old guys start a cult like following of rainbow trout in italy or brook trout in the sierras it would be just as frustrating to me.

 

[Fish Sticks]

So why fish for them at all? If you are talking about preserving a species then stop all fishing for this delicate Brook Trout. I have no problem with stopping stocking over Brook Trout. I like them just fine. I just think that demonizing Brown Trout and especially wild Brown Trout is silly when the majority of our good fishing is for them. There are many more reasons besides Brown Trout that Brook Trout are not present in PA streams. I guess next thing will be chucking nice Browns on the bank while carefully releasing native White Suckers. One of the very best streams in my area where you might encounter some fairly large Brook Trout of ten inches or more contains a mix of about 50/50 Brooks and Browns. It has stayed that way for all the years I have fished it. By the way it is also stocked every year. Someone should study it I guess.

Your just witnessing a slow transition most likely to invasive browns to brook trout. The span of your liife ajd observations can be insignificant ecologically. Lake trout were in flathead lake not bothering anything for around 100 years before they crashed bulls and cutts.

The fact that its stocked every year may be why its mixed unstead of mostly brookies by the way. They can compete to an extent but when you drop more shock troops in and skew the ratio every year your asking to make those fish disappear.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Very well said I agree 💯

At some point in ten years brook trout will probably get a threatened listing at the state level and we can all come back and read these discussions. Most people here think there are a lot more green and blue lines with brook trout than we actually have left because most are inaccurate for one reason or another. Some rough rules of thumb in mine and other board members experience and based off talking with fisheries scientists and others around the state.

Class A= synpatric with few exceptions or brook trout gone in many cases

Class A mixed= prob won’t catch a brookie in many cases


I hope all the kids your teaching to fish who see more species loss in their life time than any other generation of humans come back and read these discussions.

 

[silverfox]

Still no one has address what impact deer, bear, & other animals have walking in streams during spawning season? I would think there are more of these animals with 4 feet walking on redds then the 2 foot animals.

What are the odds that any animal (humans included) would step directly on a redd and disturb it enough to destroy a significant portion of the viable eggs? Probably next to zero.

 

[Mike]

At some point in ten years brook trout will probably get a threatened listing at the state level and we can all come back and read these discussions. Most people here think there are a lot more green and blue lines with brook trout than we actually have left because most are inaccurate for one reason or another. Some rough rules of thumb in mine and other board members experience and based off talking with fisheries scientists and others around the state.

Class A= synpatric with few exceptions or brook trout gone in many cases

Class A mixed= prob won’t catch a brookie in many cases


I hope all the kids your teaching to fish who see more species loss in their life time than any other generation of humans come back and read these discussions.

It’s a shame that the wild trout streams list doesn’t include the species found. Pa is crawling with wild ST streams and stream sections, especially those with less than a 4 m avg width. Don’t even include those documented prior to the official start of the Unassessed (wild trout) waters program in about 2008 and you would still find that Pa is loaded with wild ST streams and stream sections. Threatened in ten yrs? Hardly.

Even in the far distant future the most bleak scenario would be that ST would all be banished to the very headwaters. They still wouldn’t be threatened. And if people think so, how is it that healthy populations still exist upstream from impassible waterfalls? Even a scientist presenting on problems for ST including lack of connectivity couldn’t explain that one and yet in the next breath went right back to the doom and gloom of lost connectivity in ST streams, making the issue unfortunately sound more like ideology than science. Seems like it’s a question that should first be answered before preaching the doom and gloom of genetic isolation for this species. Despite this hole in the argument, in general for all native species of fish I would still be pressing for dam removals and passage through culverts in most typical situations. There are other benefits.

 

[flipper]

The Cult lol, spoken by a member of the see no logic Brown trout brown trout traveling pants ya ya brotherhood

Girl fight... girl fight...

If this isn't just preaching to the choir, then I don't know what is.

"Go fishing all of you!" Just go fishing.

 

[silverfox]

It’s a shame that the wild trout streams list doesn’t include the species found. Pa is crawling with wild ST streams and stream sections, especially those with less than a 4 m avg width. Don’t even include those documented prior to the official start of the Unassessed (wild trout) waters program in about 2008 and you would still find that Pa is loaded with wild ST streams and stream sections. Threatened in ten yrs? Hardly.

Even in the far distant future the most bleak scenario would be that ST would all be banished to the very headwaters. They still wouldn’t be threatened. And if people think so, how is it that healthy populations still exist upstream from impassible water falls? Even a scientist presenting on problems for ST including lack of connectivity couldn’t explain that one and yet in the next breath went right back to the doom and gloom of lost connectivity in ST streams, making the issue unfortunately sound more like ideology than science. Seems like it’s a question that should first be answered before preaching the doom and gloom of genetic isolation for this species. Despite this hole in the argument, in general for all native species of fish I would still be pressing for dam removals and passage through culverts in most typical situations.

That's not universally true. I know that in SNP they appear to be losing populations above natural barriers at a faster pace now. I suspect that might have already happened in a few places in PA.

Regardless, yes, there may be some "healthy" (based on biomass) populations above barriers today, but there are likely some that aren't so "healthy" or even extirpated. Even logically, while populations may have survived up to today, they're not secure populations if they're isolated. So, any catastrophic event in the future would surely wipe them out completely. Same with displacement/replacement. If you believe the forecast, just because they've persisted to this point doesn't mean they're in a good spot moving forward if things play out the way they're expected to.

 

[Fish Sticks]

It’s a shame that the wild trout streams list doesn’t include the species found. Pa is crawling with wild ST streams and stream sections, especially those with less than a 4 m avg width. Don’t even include those documented prior to the official start of the Unassessed (wild trout) waters program in about 2008 and you would still find that Pa is loaded with wild ST streams and stream sections. Threatened in ten yrs? Hardly.

Even in the far distant future the most bleak scenario would be that ST would all be banished to the very headwaters. They still wouldn’t be threatened. And if people think so, how is it that healthy populations still exist upstream from impassible waterfalls? Even a scientist presenting on problems for ST including lack of connectivity couldn’t explain that one and yet in the next breath went right back to the doom and gloom of lost connectivity in ST streams, making the issue unfortunately sound more like ideology than science. Seems like it’s a question that should first be answered before preaching the doom and gloom of genetic isolation for this species. Despite this hole in the argument, in general for all native species of fish I would still be pressing for dam removals and passage through culverts in most typical situations.

Mike talk to your old colleagues at fish and boat and ask them what their seeing right now. I think your remembering your hey days, go back and visit some more streams

 

[troutbert]

Mike talk to your old colleagues at fish and boat and ask them what their seeing right now. I think your remembering your hey days, go back and visit some more streams

What are you hearing from PFBC people about how brookies are doing?

Regarding visiting streams, I still do a fair bit of brookie fishing in NC PA. I haven't seen drastic changes.

 

[troutbert]

That's not universally true. I know that in SNP they appear to be losing populations above natural barriers at a faster pace now.

Above the natural barriers, what's the problem?

 

[tomgamber]

without scrolling up, who can tell me name of this thread?

 

[Fish Sticks]

What are you hearing from PFBC people about how brookies are doing?

Regarding visiting streams, I still do a fair bit of brookie fishing in NC PA. I haven't seen drastic changes.

All I can say is call some region biologists, AFMS, and survey personnel and ask about the accuracy of the maps, specifically on species

 

[Fish Sticks]

It’s a shame that the wild trout streams list doesn’t include the species found. Pa is crawling with wild ST streams and stream sections, especially those with less than a 4 m avg width. Don’t even include those documented prior to the official start of the Unassessed (wild trout) waters program in about 2008 and you would still find that Pa is loaded with wild ST streams and stream sections. Threatened in ten yrs? Hardly.

Even in the far distant future the most bleak scenario would be that ST would all be banished to the very headwaters. They still wouldn’t be threatened. And if people think so, how is it that healthy populations still exist upstream from impassible waterfalls? Even a scientist presenting on problems for ST including lack of connectivity couldn’t explain that one and yet in the next breath went right back to the doom and gloom of lost connectivity in ST streams, making the issue unfortunately sound more like ideology than science. Seems like it’s a question that should first be answered before preaching the doom and gloom of genetic isolation for this species. Despite this hole in the argument, in general for all native species of fish I would still be pressing for dam removals and passage through culverts in most typical situations. There are other

There are ways certain species like the owens pup fish can purge maladaptive genes but I have not seen evidence brook trout can do this yet in isolation without gene flow.

Demographic data is SO over relied on its crazy. Yes fragmentation is bad, purging maladaptive genes if its readily possible for brook trout is SUCH a slower process for adaptation for brook trout than just adding some gene flow. That scientist probably understands that.

So if you give someone a small hand tool like a shaver can they carve a 3 foot around log into a sculpture sure, in a year maybe. If we want to have a lot of sculptures shouldn’t we give them a chain saw?

 

[Nocktavius]

without scrolling up, who can tell me name of this thread?

I’ll take “Wild Trout Pissing Match” for 500, Alex.

 

[coyoterahn]

without scrolling up, who can tell me name of this thread?

How to win friends and influence people?🙄

 

[Fish Sticks]

Above the natural barriers, what's the problem?

Genetic drift and inbreeding depression