WV Brook Trout

[troutbert]

"...more than likely you may catch a fish or two before heading a couple miles downstream to where the First Fork of the Sinnemahoning River has been stocked."

Oh, the humanity.

Exactly. The First Fork is stocked, the East Fork is stocked, the lake at Sinnemahoning State Park is stocked, the Driftwood Branch is stocked, the Allegheny River is stocked. None of those are far away.

Also, note that he wrote "First Fork of the Sinnemahoning River.." It's Sinnemahoning CREEK, not River.

Also, the First Fork is stocked way upstream. Most of the First Fork is not even on the wild trout list, but in those upper stretches, they are stocking a good wild trout stream (mixed browns and brookies).

 

[troutbert]

I know a landowner with a cabin along Freeman Run. They are part of the problem. As I understand it an upstream landowner stocks it. They are adamantly opposed to cessation of stocking there be it privately or by the PFBC. The complaint I hear from the people I know is that wild fish are small and w/o stocking, Freeman Run will not be a meaningful fishery for them and other landowners. There's that attitude, and then there is this one: https://www.tiogapublishing.com/col...cle_a7e488d6-dc5e-5db5-a051-5c42254fad6b.html

Wild Trouter's post pretty much explains "the way it is" in most of the woodsy parts of the state. And the way it has been for a long time. Even with the Class A streams, it's a struggle.

BTW, the writer of the article doesn't seem to know about the concept of wild brown trout, if I'm interpreting it correctly.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I know a landowner with a cabin along Freeman Run. They are part of the problem. As I understand it an upstream landowner stocks it. They are adamantly opposed to cessation of stocking there be it privately or by the PFBC. The complaint I hear from the people I know is that wild fish are small and w/o stocking, Freeman Run will not be a meaningful fishery for them and other landowners. There's that attitude, and then there is this one: https://www.tiogapublishing.com/col...cle_a7e488d6-dc5e-5db5-a051-5c42254fad6b.html

This is exactly what I can’t stand about people pushing stocked trout, they always hide behind kids. “It doesn’t affect me because I like fishing for native brook trout and got them to take my offerings” BS

Time and time again I will say it, kids don’t care what species they catch. Those kids in austin could be down stream having 100 fish days on worms with fall fish, panfish/smb. They like trout fishing because adults hype it up. Adults hype it up because THEY LIKE it. Love how the writer trys to act indifferent and its about the kids.

 

[rustbeltwilds]

This is exactly what I can’t stand about people pushing stocked trout, they always hide behind kids. “It doesn’t affect me because I like fishing for native brook trout and got them to take my offerings” BS

Time and time again I will say it, kids don’t care what species they catch. Those kids in austin could be down stream having 100 fish days on worms with fall fish, panfish/smb. They like trout fishing because adults hype it up. Adults hype it up because THEY LIKE it. Love how the writer trys to act indifferent and its about

they hide behind the kids on alot of other things lol

 

[troutbert]

Those kids in austin could be down stream having 100 fish days on worms with fall fish, panfish/smb.

Really? Where's the 100 fish/day of fallfish, panfish, smallmouth stretch?

 

[Fish Sticks]

Really? Where's the 100 fish/day of fallfish, panfish, smallmouth stretch?

i mean i have put up huge mixed species numbers like 30-40 fish in just a half day walking my daughter down the banks of the susky with worms. I imagine someplace like that exists up there when you hit the warm water streams

 

[Fish Sticks]

Really? Where's the 100 fish/day of fallfish, panfish, smallmouth stretch?

basically its not in 1st/2nd order freeman run.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Really? Where's the 100 fish/day of fallfish, panfish, smallmouth stretch?

I could show you plenty of ponds where 100 panfish would be very attainable

 

[silverfox]

But there would be no artificially yellow bluegill or mutated blue fallfish. They also wouldn't catch artificially fattened up 5 lb pumpkinseeds or 8 lb fallfish.

The only way to attract more anglers is to modify nature from its natural state to make it more interesting to a broader audience.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

But there would be no artificially yellow bluegill or mutated blue fallfish. They also wouldn't catch artificially fattened up 5 lb pumpkinseeds or 8 lb fallfish.

The only way to attract more anglers is to modify nature from its natural state to make it more interesting to a broader audience.

I have to admit, 5 lb pumpkin seeds do sound enticing.

I caught what appeared to be a bluegill once in an private lake once that was the size of a small frying pan, not joking. I was using a 5wt mid action rod and it put up one heck of a fight.


Can we get those 5 lb pumpkin seeds in DeYoung brown trout color though?

 

[silverfox]

I have to admit, 5 lb pumpkin seeds do sound enticing.

I caught what appeared to be a bluegill once in an private lake once that was the size of a small frying pan, not joking. I was using a 5wt mid action rod and it put up one heck of a fight.


Can we get those 5 lb pumpkin seeds in DeYoung brown trout color though?

My grandparents had a farm when I was growing up that had two ponds full of panfish. My grandfather fed them catfood every day and they were the most ridiculous things I've ever seen.

 

[troutbert]

I looked at the 2023 PFBC regulations booklet and saw that in that same watershed, East Branch Cowley Run, a nice little brookie stream, is still stocked.

Here's the location.

N 41.60423 W 78.15927

You can paste that into Acmemapper, which has a Topo map option. Or Google Maps.

As you can see on the maps, it's a pretty small stream, and runs through state forest land and Sizerville State Park.

 

[silverfox]

I looked at the 2023 PFBC regulations booklet and saw that in that same watershed, East Branch Cowley Run, a nice little brookie stream, is still stocked.

Here's the location.

N 41.60423 W 78.15927

You can paste that into Acmemapper, which has a Topo map option. Or Google Maps.

As you can see on the maps, it's a pretty small stream, and runs through state forest land and Sizerville State Park.

Stocking small brook trout streams is obviously a problem, but I think another issue we have in PA is we have no medium to large streams/rivers that are brook trout streams without stocked trout or wild nonnative trout. Seeing some of the streams in the video the OP posted in WV is awesome. We have nothing like that. To be fair, I don't know if those streams are stocked or have nonnative fish present, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're allopatric brook trout streams, either.

I truly believe the number one issue in PA is nonnative trout. The reason I say that is because all of the other negative impacts to brook trout are being addressed are openly discussed and aren't controversial. Nonnative trout are the elephant in the room.

I think this map (from EBTJV) tells that story.

Then compare that to this (my map):

Notably, the area in the eastern Adirondacks, which is blue on the EBTJV map, is where NY DEC conducted hundreds of reclamations. Aside from Vermont (another state lagging behind other states in terms of brook trout protections) PA has the widest distribution of sympatric populations.

Even comparing WV and PA in terms of stocking shows how much more stocking PA does.

It seems like every medium sized stream in PA is stocked. All the small streams that get stocked or have wild nonnative trout or are stocked privately or by co-op nurseries isn't represented in that map. That's just PFBC stocking.

Compared to WV (green lines are stocked).

The problem with PA now is we've ignored this issue for so long that in order to create a special management area for brook trout would mean removal would be required. Best case scenario they could establish aggressive angling regulations like no closed season and no daily limit on nonnative trout, but I doubt that would result in any meaningful reduction in nonnative trout. Maybe if it was combined with annual manual removals. There's no appetite for any of this in PA so it will likely never happen.

I personally think these special management areas serve as an educational tool more than anything. They also promote the species to anglers. Referencing the recent letter from the outgoing steering committee chair, "Many states have designated high quality eastern brook trout fisheries that have special management regulations to protect these fish, and to improve and promote recreational fishing opportunities..." Pennsylvania isn't included in "many". In fact, we're 1 of 4 states that have no brook trout management area.

I don't think nonnative trout are the biggest cause for the lack of allopatric brook trout populations, but our avoidance of even admitting it's an issue is going to continue to become a bigger and bigger problem. Again, in my opinion, it's the biggest issue facing brook trout in Pennsylvania, not because nonnative fish are the biggest threat, but because nobody is addressing it at all.

This issue was listed in the trout management plan:

Between 2020 and 2024, the PFBC will assess the density and occurrence of wild Brook Trout and Brown Trout between historic and contemporary surveys to determine if changes have occurred in the distribution and ratios of these species. Results of this project will inform management actions and may identify issues such as impacts of increasing water temperature, habitat degradation, among others, along with areas of greater wild Brook Trout resiliency.

I can say that in the three years, since that plan was published, the only thing that has occurred relative to this issue is a meeting was held last year to discuss designing a study. That shows this issue has no priority at PFBC.

I know this is a controversial subject in angling communities. That just further reinforces how far off the rails we are.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Stocking small brook trout streams is obviously a problem, but I think another issue we have in PA is we have no medium to large streams/rivers that are brook trout streams without stocked trout or wild nonnative trout. Seeing some of the streams in the video the OP posted in WV is awesome. We have nothing like that. To be fair, I don't know if those streams are stocked or have nonnative fish present, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're allopatric brook trout streams, either.

I truly believe the number one issue in PA is nonnative trout. The reason I say that is because all of the other negative impacts to brook trout are being addressed are openly discussed and aren't controversial. Nonnative trout are the elephant in the room.

I think this map (from EBTJV) tells that story.
View attachment 1641228555

Then compare that to this (my map):
View attachment 1641228556

Notably, the area in the eastern Adirondacks, which is blue on the EBTJV map, is where NY DEC conducted hundreds of reclamations. Aside from Vermont (another state lagging behind other states in terms of brook trout protections) PA has the widest distribution of sympatric populations.

Even comparing WV and PA in terms of stocking shows how much more stocking PA does.
View attachment 1641228557
It seems like every medium sized stream in PA is stocked. All the small streams that get stocked or have wild nonnative trout or are stocked privately or by co-op nurseries isn't represented in that map. That's just PFBC stocking.

Compared to WV (green lines are stocked).
View attachment 1641228558

The problem with PA now is we've ignored this issue for so long that in order to create a special management area for brook trout would mean removal would be required. Best case scenario they could establish aggressive angling regulations like no closed season and no daily limit on nonnative trout, but I doubt that would result in any meaningful reduction in nonnative trout. Maybe if it was combined with annual manual removals. There's no appetite for any of this in PA so it will likely never happen.

I personally think these special management areas serve as an educational tool more than anything. They also promote the species to anglers. Referencing the recent letter from the outgoing steering committee chair, "Many states have designated high quality eastern brook trout fisheries that have special management regulations to protect these fish, and to improve and promote recreational fishing opportunities..." Pennsylvania isn't included in "many". In fact, we're 1 of 4 states that have no brook trout management area.

I don't think nonnative trout are the biggest cause for the lack of allopatric brook trout populations, but our avoidance of even admitting it's an issue is going to continue to become a bigger and bigger problem. Again, in my opinion, it's the biggest issue facing brook trout in Pennsylvania, not because nonnative fish are the biggest threat, but because nobody is addressing it at all.

This issue was listed in the trout management plan:

I can say that in the three years, since that plan was published, the only thing that has occurred relative to this issue is a meeting was held last year to discuss designing a study. That shows this issue has no priority at PFBC.

I know this is a controversial subject in angling communities. That just further reinforces how far off the rails we are.

Agreed, they are the number one issue for the reason you stated. Despite brown trout only being the third largest threat to brook trout, look at what has been/being done for numbers 1 & 2. Bay orgs/tree initiatives, farm bill, growing greener funds, NFWF INSR/SMW grants, Pandemic funding, DEP319, all aimed at improving land management and temperatures in one form or another. The chesapeake bay goals are obviously not hit so more money, focus, and effort is going to be put forth.

But the reason invasive species is the number one issue here in PA is that where those species do occur all the restoration aimed at problems one and two, based on the literature, likely won’t save brook trout where number 3 is ignored or actually worsened by PFBC.

 

[silverfox]

Agreed, they are the number one issue for the reason you stated. Despite brown trout only being the third largest threat to brook trout, look at what has been/being done for numbers 1 & 2. Bay orgs/tree initiatives, farm bill, growing greener funds, NFWF INSR/SMW grants, Pandemic funding, DEP319, all aimed at improving land management and temperatures in one form or another. The chesapeake bay goals are obviously not hit so more money, focus, and effort is going to be put forth.

But the reason invasive species is the number one issue here in PA is that where those species do occur all the restoration aimed at problems one and two, based on the literature, likely won’t save brook trout where number 3 is ignored or actually worsened by PFBC.
View attachment 1641228559

It's also an issue that we DO have full control over and at a relatively lower cost than dealing with the other issues. Unlike the other significant threats to the species, money isn't the issue. Willpower is.

 

[Swattie87]

WV isn’t the Brook Trout Shangri-La by any stretch. There’s wild Rainbows in nearly every major system to some degree (think like Browns in PA), and to a lesser extent wild Browns.

I’m not saying they’re not ahead of PA in terms of Brook Trout preservation enlightenment from a regulatory and resource management perspective, they are. And there probably are more true allopatric streams in WV if you made me guess, but WV water still has plenty of issues.

The relatively “large” Brook Trout stream showcased in the video for example is Seneca Creek, and it’s got a ton of wild Rainbows in it. Been there, caught them. Not trying to be a contrarian, and the OP video is great, and delivers a great message. After fishing there personally, I’m just wondering how many Rainbows they caught off camera while filming this. 😜 (I saw the video first outside of the context of this thread, and that’s the first thought I had. No Rainbows hmmmm…)

WV may have more Brookies in bigger water, and more bigger water with Brookies in it, but in most cases, my guess is there are wild Trout of other species present too.

My personal experience with WV is similar to PA from a wild Trout angling perspective. There’s places where you catch a lot of Brookies, and admittedly they do run on average a little bigger, for whatever reason. But not a lot bigger. And eventually, in every system I’ve fished, you turn up a wild Bow or Brown, or both. And sometimes, a lot of them. FWIW.

 

[jifigz]

Just some thoughts.....first of all, comparing streams stocked in West Virginia to streams stocked in PA is a little crazy. All of West Virginia has a population that is just slightly larger than the city of Philadelphia proper. PA has 11.26 million more people roughly. That means we have like 8 times the amount of people. We are one of the most densely populated states and our citizens are used to trout stocking. It is something that they expect but it is slowly changing. Less and less streams are being stocked due to many reasons. The shift towards wild trout (although not necessarily brook trout) is happening due to the slowly failing stocking practices of the PFBC.

I don't think it is that anyone refuses to acknowledge the brown trout's influence on brook trout but the task is so monumental that in all but the tiniest of systems it would be nearly impossible. Here in my part of central PA we have lots of small systems that flow directly into the Juniata River. All of these small streams are limestone spring fed/influenced and all are dominated by browns. I could see some of those streams since they are "closed systems" being able to be reclaimed as long as there are not environmental factors that would limit the brookies from taking hold. But otherwise, once the browns were gone their chances of recolonization would be slim, but some browns do lurk in the mainstem of the Juniata so they could come back up I suppose.

 

[silverfox]

WV isn’t the Brook Trout Shangri-La by any stretch. There’s wild Rainbows in nearly every major system to some degree (think like Browns in PA), and to a lesser extent wild Browns.

I’m not saying they’re not ahead of PA in terms of Brook Trout preservation enlightenment from a regulatory and resource management perspective, they are. And there probably are more true allopatric streams in WV if you made me guess, but WV water still has plenty of issues.

The relatively “large” Brook Trout stream showcased in the video for example is Seneca Creek, and it’s got a ton of wild Rainbows in it. Been there, caught them. Not trying to be a contrarian, and the OP video is great, and delivers a great message. After fishing there personally, I’m just wondering how many Rainbows they caught off camera while filming this. 😜 (I saw the video first outside of the context of this thread, and that’s the first thought I had. No Rainbows hmmmm…)

WV may have more Brookies in bigger water, and more bigger water with Brookies in it, but in most cases, my guess is there are wild Trout of other species present too.

My personal experience with WV is similar to PA from a wild Trout angling perspective. There’s places where you catch a lot of Brookies, and admittedly they do run on average a little bigger, for whatever reason. But not a lot bigger. And eventually, in every system I’ve fished, you turn up a wild Bow or Brown, or both. And sometimes, a lot of them. FWIW.

I've fished Seneca many times as well. I guess I've never fished that low down in the stream because the Seneca I'm familiar with up to the falls is much smaller.

The 5 brook trout management areas in WV are allopatric. I know of several other places with fairly large networks of streams that are allopatric/unstocked/no wild nonnative trout and are under general regs. I'm not claiming WV is brook trout Nirvana by any means, but they're well ahead of PA, which was my point.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Swattie posted almost exactly what I was going to mention about WV. There are some unique allopatric streams, some in that condition are due to water quality issues that prevented colonization from rt and bt.

I have also personally fished Seneca and a few other streams in the National forest. Although I caught impressive numbers of 11-13 in native brook trout, I also caught rt, bt or stocked trout in just about every stream I have fished there.

Albeit my overall level of exploration has been somewhat limited in WV.

 

[silverfox]

Just some thoughts.....first of all, comparing streams stocked in West Virginia to streams stocked in PA is a little crazy. All of West Virginia has a population that is just slightly larger than the city of Philadelphia proper. PA has 11.26 million more people roughly. That means we have like 8 times the amount of people. We are one of the most densely populated states and our citizens are used to trout stocking. It is something that they expect but it is slowly changing. Less and less streams are being stocked due to many reasons. The shift towards wild trout (although not necessarily brook trout) is happening due to the slowly failing stocking practices of the PFBC.

I don't think it is that anyone refuses to acknowledge the brown trout's influence on brook trout but the task is so monumental that in all but the tiniest of systems it would be nearly impossible. Here in my part of central PA we have lots of small systems that flow directly into the Juniata River. All of these small streams are limestone spring fed/influenced and all are dominated by browns. I could see some of those streams since they are "closed systems" being able to be reclaimed as long as there are not environmental factors that would limit the brookies from taking hold. But otherwise, once the browns were gone their chances of recolonization would be slim, but some browns do lurk in the mainstem of the Juniata so they could come back up I suppose.

I agree with everything you say. It also doesn't change the fact that PA is lagging far behind almost all of the other states in the EBT native range. Call it culture, marketing, influence, whatever, the problem remains and will remain indefinitely if nobody does anything about it.

I think there's been a conscientious decision to focus on stocking and nonnative trout at the expense of brook trout. Those two bring in money and money is king. I get it. It doesn't change the fact that we're very obviously behind other states on this issue.