WV Brook Trout

[Mike]

I just have a hard time believing a brookie can survive a summer in Penns. And even more surprised a decent sized fish can survive in the tribs as low as they get. Those creeks are absolute trickles in the summer.

I didn’t say that they do survive the summer in Penns. In fact when I first read about ST in Penns the likelihood of poor or no survival of of summer ST was the first thought that came to my mind, although a very wet summer could possibly produce an exception. I was only responding to pcray’s comment about the remaining growth of a 3 yr old ST in Penns assuming for sake of argument that it did survive until age 5.

 

[Paralep]

I dont often post often unless it deals with my home waters. Above there is a discussion about Penns Brook Trout. How would we really expect to catch large brook trout in a stream that has summertime water temps that are barely suvived by wild browns. Seriously! Gents its not possible. Thankfully that wonderful creek is inhabited by a bunch of wild browns that have adapted to migrate to spring seeps and mouths of feeders during the tough times. The very reason that there are nice sized wild browns is because the summers kill off the weak. It makes room for growth some years and high numbers other years. The brook trout thing flew the coop almost a hundred years ago. We all love them of course but upward and forward. We cant undo that past.

 

[Fish Sticks]

T

Just a guess.

Young brookies dont survive in Penns. They get eaten.

So the only brookies in Penns were already adults when they got there. They begin to grow quickly in that water, but were already pretty old before that faster growth started and brookies don't live that long.

If a fish is 3 years old, and still only 7" long. Gets to bigger water. But its life expectancy is 5. How big can it realistically get?

well its a good guess because age zero get predated upon by brown trout big time in multiple studies I have read.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Was someone discussing turning Penns into a brook trout stream or why it isn't ?

I thought we were discussing why more occasional larger ST don't turn up as often as you would think when you consider migration.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I just have a hard time believing a brookie can survive a summer in Penns. And even more surprised a decent sized fish can survive in the tribs as low as they get. Those creeks are absolute trickles in the summer.

Penns has many spring seeps and spring fed tributaries tbat could serve as thermal
refuge. The issue is likely to a large extent displacement from those cool areas in summer by brown trout as highlighted by Hitt and Tregos studies.

I don’t know what the brook trout that live in Penns creek have as a life history strategy, if PFBC would put down the bucket and study them they could protect vulnerable life history stages/locations or alter management to favor them. Instead i just a PDF on their website about how they radiotelemetry tagged stocked trout to track their product.

 

[silverfox]

While the other states continue to do, we'll continue making excuses for why we can't.

Many of the 17 states that form the core of the EBTJV have recently updated or amended their brook trout management plans, or they are in the process of doing so. These management plans have elevated the importance of brook trout conservation. Most states have eliminated the stocking of hatchery fish on top of wild brook trout populations. Many states have designated high quality eastern brook trout fisheries that have special management regulations to protect these fish, and to improve and promote recreational fishing opportunities there, including Maryland, Tennessee, Rhode Island, Connecticut, West Virginia, Virginia, New Jersey, New York, Tennessee. The state of Maine passed a regulation several years ago banning the use of bait on hundreds of their heritage wild brook trout ponds and lakes to protect these fish from non-native fish introductions.

Reflections on Brook Trout Conservation over the past 6 years — EBTJV

Nat Gillespie talks about the state of brook trout conservation. Nat is the Assistant National Fish Program Leader for the US Forest Service in their Washington, DC headquarters. He served as the EBTJV Steering Committee Chair from 2017-2022.

easternbrooktrout.org

We're decades behind the other states. Nothing will change in this state.

 

[pcray1231]

no, nobody is suggesting doing anything to the browns in Penns.

It was used in the discussion of size capability of brookies, because Penns is fertile big fish water that does already have a fair number of wild brook trout. Its still a brown trout stream and will be for the foreseeable future. But the last couple of years its been more likely that I catch one in an outing than not. 1 in 15 fish or so, just the last couple years.

 

[Fish Sticks]

no, nobody is suggesting doing anything to the browns in Penns.

It was used in the discussion of size capability of brookies, because Penns is fertile big fish water that does already have a fair number of wild brook trout. Its still a brown trout stream and will be for the foreseeable future. But the last couple of years its been more likely that I catch one in an outing than not. 1 in 15 fish or so, just the last couple years.

Yea no one is going to remove browns on penns its not possible in water that big and even if it was possible socially there would be a mob with pitch forks and torches. I was just saying that wouldn’t stop PAFBC from radio telemetry tracking them (instead of stocked rainbows like the study on their website) and see what kind of life history they have because much like there have been closures to protect to s of brown trout at the mouths of tributaries there may be places or certain time periods where steps could be taken to protect, increase success, or create more opportunity for a certain critical/ rate limiting life history stage.

Essentially I was just point out that just because we can’t remove all the brown trout in the penns creek watershed that calling it a “brown trout stream” that shouldn’t preclude us from working with them, seeing why they are having success, and seeing if there is a way to tip the scales or enhance their success in certain focal areas.

David Thorne a West Virginia Biologist is actually quoted on saying they have done research on life histories and its changed their management. Don’t hold your breath here, just gotta keep watching these awesome youtube videos coming out from WVU at a more southern latitude with less ground water.

 

[troutbert]

In Penns Creek, what percentage of the wild trout population in the entire stream would you estimate is brook trout?

 

[Fish Sticks]

In Penns Creek, what percentage of the wild trout population in the entire stream would you estimate is brook trout?

I have no idea, but neither does PFBC thats the point

 

[Fish Sticks]

In Penns Creek, what percentage of the wild trout population in the entire stream would you estimate is brook trout?

I have no idea, but neither does PFBC thats the

In Penns Creek, what percentage of the wild trout population in the entire stream would you estimate is brook trout?

I think a more relevant question to ask besides “what % of wild trout are brook trout” (thats how PFBC thinks), would be how many are in Penns at what time of the year and how much of penns and where in Penns are they using it.

I know you think the big water stuff is lunacy despite it working in multiple other states and seeing quotes like this.

“They need to be a large, contiguous and well connected native brook trout watershed,” said Thorne. “This is a watershed idea based on a lot of the research I and other people have conducted. Connectivity between the tributaries and main stems is how we see increased growth in fish. They have larger habitat, more food available, and can move to different habitats during different parts of their life cycle.”-David Thorne WV DNR biologist.

What crazy fish sticks and the whacky fisheries scientists are saying is the reason this thread got started and some WV brook trout, to an extent, are large is they get the big water importance. You can’t manage the tiny brook trout headwater streams most people have tunnel vision on without knowing what scale those brook trout live their lives on. Summer time electrosurvey data by itself is hot garbage for management if you don’t know they go the other 2/3rds of the year and why.

 

[Swattie87]

In Penns Creek, what percentage of the wild trout population in the entire stream would you estimate is brook trout?

Just my educated guesses but, in the main stem…

By numbers…Maybe 2%.

By biomass…a fraction of 1%. Maybe 0.5%, or less.

 

[troutbert]

I know you think the big water stuff is lunacy despite it working in multiple other states and seeing quotes like this.

I'll describe my own views.

You have no business making stuff up, then claiming that is my view. That's a bad habit to get into.

 

[Mike]

I have no idea, but neither does PFBC thats the point

They most likely do for a good portion of the coldwater part of Penns. Their population estimates were certainly not Brown Trout specific when they electrofished prior to and after establishment of the slot limit. If they captured Brook Trout, then they would have generated estimates. Likewise, when they ran a population estimate in the formerly stocked section below Cherry Rn, that would not have been Brown Trout specific either if, in fact, Brook Trout were also captured.

 

[Fish Sticks]

They most likely do for a good portion of the coldwater part of Penns. Their population estimates were certainly not Brown Trout specific when they electrofished prior to and after establishment of the slot limit. If they captured Brook Trout, then they would have generated estimates. Likewise, when they ran a population estimate in the formerly stocked section below Cherry Rn, that would not have been Brown Trout specific either if, in fact, Brook Trout were also captured.

They Likely surveyed in summertime, to know the importance of penns as a part of brook trouts life history and how the fish in cherry, swift, panther, henstep ect use it one would likely be best served by doing a radio-telemetry study like PFBC did on the stocked rainbows in the study on the PDF on their website. Summer surveys are a static snapshot and picture in time.

I happen to know PFBC has no idea state wide how much brook trout vs. how much brown trout they are sitting on. Encourage people to use the RTK if they want to know how much effort PFBC putting into their own self stated minimalist goals for wild native brook trout.

 

[Mike]

They Likely surveyed in summertime, to know the importance of penns as a part of brook trouts life history and how the fish in cherry, swift, panther, henstep ect use it one would likely be best served by doing a radio-telemetry study like PFBC did on the stocked rainbows in the study on the PDF on their website. Summer surveys are a static snapshot and picture in time.

I happen to know PFBC has no idea state wide how much brook trout vs. how much brown trout they are sitting on. Encourage people to use the RTK if they want to know how much effort PFBC putting into their own self stated minimalist goals for wild native brook trout.

In my view it’s the kind of study that would be a drainage-specific graduate student type movement monitoring study, not an agency study. It would most likely have to be part of a larger study building on previous work, such as that in the Loyalsock basin.

 

[Fish Sticks]

That’s up to them, but in my view that’s a drainage-specific graduate student type study that would most likely have to be part of a larger study since it is already known that some wild trout move. The stocked trout telemetry study of which I am aware was done by a graduate student who also happened to be a PFBC biologist working on his MS at East Stroudsburg. At the time it was not known how many stocked trout move, how far they were moving, why they were apparently disappearing from some NE Pa streams, and what was triggering it. In other words, there were a lot more unknowns at the time of the study and from a practical standpoint it was valuable info from an academic standpoint and from financial/program management standpoints. It triggered additional graduate work at PSU on relative losses of stocked trout from movement and heron predation. It also triggered a statewide PFBC investigation into preseason stocked trout residency, primarily in width class 3 streams.

We know wild brook trout move, yes…….yet shannon whites study on the loyal sock that combined radio telemetry and fin clips will go down as showing 20th century fisheries management was the medical equivalent of blood letting with leaches and working based on the 4 evil humors.

We also know they move differently in each watershed. This is why the EBTJV GIS map has a designations for specific known life histories because protecting unique ones are valuable.

And your God Da** right that its up to them

 

[silverfox]

They most likely do for a good portion of the coldwater part of Penns. Their population estimates were certainly not Brown Trout specific when they electrofished prior to and after establishment of the slot limit. If they captured Brook Trout, then they would have generated estimates. Likewise, when they ran a population estimate in the formerly stocked section below Cherry Rn, that would not have been Brown Trout specific either if, in fact, Brook Trout were also captured.

So they knew brook trout were present and decided they didn’t need to be included in the slot limit reg.

 

[Fish Sticks]

So they knew brook trout were present and decided they didn’t need to be included in the slot limit reg.

Did not factor into license sales

 

[Wild_Trouter]

Are we discounting the possibility that WBT migrate from mainstem Penns into Elk, Pine...both limestoners? There are also other important tribs providing thermal refuge not listed here besides Panther, Swift, Cherry, etc. I would definitely be intrigued by a radio telemetry study of WBT movement in/out Penns.