WV Brook Trout

[Fish Sticks]

Are we discounting the possibility that WBT migrate from mainstem Penns into Elk, Pine...both limestoners? There are also other important tribs providing thermal refuge not listed here besides Panther, Swift, Cherry, etc. I would definitely be intrigued by a radio telemetry study of WBT movement in/out Penns.

No not at all, good point, we know there are WBT in the extreme headwaters despite all the biological barriers between penns and those headwaters. Imagine predation must be enormous but some of the older year classes are hopefully are running the gauntlet

 

[Mike]

Are we discounting the possibility that WBT migrate from mainstem Penns into Elk, Pine...both limestoners? There are also other important tribs providing thermal refuge not listed here besides Panther, Swift, Cherry, etc. I would definitely be intrigued by a radio telemetry study of WBT movement in/out Penns.

If they do, they get the max water quality protections possible in Pa since both streams are designated Exceptional Value in DEP’s Chapter 93, Water Quality Standards.

 

[Mike]

So they knew brook trout were present and decided they didn’t need to be included in the slot limit reg.

I didn’t say that they knew there were ST, as the population estimates could have been zero ST. Read it again; I said if they captured brook trout.

What I was trying to say was that IF they found ST in the Penns Ck sampling, then they could have generated some form of population estimate, no matter how refined or crude depending on sample size (number collected).

As to the slot limit, there probably was a comment period.

 

[Mike]

We know wild brook trout move, yes…….yet shannon whites study on the loyal sock that combined radio telemetry and fin clips will go down as showing 20th century fisheries management was the medical equivalent of blood letting with leaches and working based on the 4 evil humors.

We also know they move differently in each watershed. This is why the EBTJV GIS map has a designations for specific known life histories because protecting unique ones are valuable.

And your God Da** right that its up to them

How many of Shannon White’s legal ST were harvested from the Loyalsock Ck by springtime anglers and how many were at large in the Loyalsock Ck?

 

[Fish Sticks]

I didn’t say that they knew there were ST, as the population estimates could have been zero ST. Read it again; I said if they captured brook trout.

What I was trying to say was that IF they found ST in the Penns Ck sampling, then they could have generated some form of population estimate, no matter how refined or crude depending on sample size (number collected).

As to the slot limit, there probably was a comment period.

Yes a comment period but no intrinsic management by the fisheries managers towards the stated goals in their own wild trout plan. Its up to the public. General public was expected to manage.

And as i said if you read it again, regardless if they captured ST or not, they shock in summer and falsely extrapolate to four seasons. Its useless to even mention if you are trying to figure out if penns creek has a significance to those fish beyond if they use penns in August. A population estimate based off summer electroshocking as your saying is the reason we are where we are at in trout management in this state.

 

[silverfox]

I didn’t say that they knew there were ST, as the population estimates could have been zero ST. Read it again; I said if they captured brook trout.

What I was trying to say was that IF they found ST in the Penns Ck sampling, then they could have generated some form of population estimate, no matter how refined or crude depending on sample size (number collected).

As to the slot limit, there probably was a comment period.

I commented on every possible opportunity to do so and brought up the fact that the regulation ignored brook trout. So I made my thoughts on that known during scoping. I guess I was the only person who brought it up so they just ignored it. As long as the masses are happy I guess.

 

[Fish Sticks]

How many of Shannon White’s legal ST were harvested from the Loyalsock Ck by springtime anglers and how many were at large in the Loyalsock Ck?

The radio telemetry tags expired by december/january ish so we actually dont know. It also means that the 20% number you point to for movers is an underestimate.

 

[silverfox]

The radio telemetry tags expired by december/january ish so we actually dont know. It also means that the 20% number you point to for movers is an underestimate.

The last location recorded was November 7th, 2016. I'd love to see a January to June study.

 

[Fish Sticks]

The last location recorded was November 7th, 2016. I'd love to see a January to June study.

you know looking at how native brook trout use large watersheds and putting in the fisheries management field work to get the data required to manage them was not as important as the $65,500 thats going to rebuild potter county sportsmans hatchery in a county with one of the highest ratios of stream born catchable trout to people on the eastern sea board.

 

[silverfox]

you know looking at how native brook trout use large watersheds and putting in the fisheries management field work to get the data required to manage them was not as important as the $65,500 thats going to rebuild potter county sportsmans hatchery in a county with one of the highest ratios of stream born catchable trout to people on the eastern sea board.

The more frustrating part is what people like you and I are asking for would cost nothing. Cessation of stocking over wild brook trout would likely cost next to nothing. A watershed managed exclusively for brook trout would cost nothing. Both would provide protections for brook trout, bring us in line with the majority of the other states in the EBT native range, serve as an important educational tool to explain to the public that the species needs help, and improve public support for water quality improvement in general.

 

[Fish Sticks]

The more frustrating part is what people like you and I are asking for would cost nothing. Cessation of stocking over wild brook trout would likely cost next to nothing. A watershed managed exclusively for brook trout would cost nothing. Both would provide protections for brook trout, bring us in line with the majority of the other states in the EBT native range, serve as an important educational tool to explain to the public that the species needs help, and improve public support for water quality improvement in general.

Yea to quote commissioner Brock from the hatcheries and fisheries committee meeting about discontinuing stocking on freeman run when hussar brought up the wild native brook trout in the stream and referenced discontinuation of stocking being to their benefit, he said “This seems like its happening too fast”. He was referencing moving away from stocking where native brook trout exist.

…….thats the guy in charge of PA’s climate change stronghold native brook trout populations. Doesn’t matter that it would be cheaper to just stop wasting money on fish, 65k in grants, and transportation for PFBC hatchery trout. Its stock or bust at PFBC.

Case an point, no conservation involved just a penn state business analysis of how bad hatcheries/stocking is killing their finances what does the smeal college of bussiness in July 2017 recommend they do???

they can’t follow fisheries science recommendations.

They can’t follow a business consultant’s recommendations.

The only thing they can do is raise and stock fish

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Yea to quote commissioner Brock from the hatcheries and fisheries committee meeting about discontinuing stocking on freeman run when hussar brought up the wild native brook trout in the stream and referenced discontinuation of stocking being to their benefit, he said “This seems like its happening too fast”. He was referencing moving away from stocking where native brook trout exist.

…….thats the guy in charge of PA’s climate change stronghold native brook trout populations. Doesn’t matter that it would be cheaper to just stop wasting money on fish, 65k in grants, and transportation for PFBC hatchery trout. Its stock or bust at PFBC.

Case an point, no conservation involved just a penn state business analysis of how bad hatcheries/stocking is killing their finances what does the smeal college of bussiness in July 2017 recommend they do???

View attachment 1641228540

they can’t follow fisheries science recommendations.

They can’t follow a business consultant’s recommendations.

The only thing they can do is raise and stock fish

100%

It's going to be sad with the amount of damage done for nothing but I do expect the Tower of Babel to collapse, that is the hatchery program, and I'm going to love watching it.

If not in my lifetime, my kids will enjoy it just as much.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

 

[pcray1231]

In Penns Creek, what percentage of the wild trout population in the entire stream would you estimate is brook trout?

Probably highly variable by location and year.

But the last 2 years, adding up only 4 outings, lol. Between Poe Paddy and Cherry Run. Of 65 trout caught, 6 were brookies. That's 9.2%. Do I think 9.2% of the trout are brookies? No, they're easier to catch.

In all cases, the evening rise is coming, and you get those first risers like an hr before the rest of the stream blows up. One fish rises repeatedly and kind of talks you into switching to dries, after all it's only gonna increase, right? Those first fish rising were the brookies. So, probably kinda selecting them in a way. Betting the overall % is more like 1-5% in that section. And again, it's become much more common in the last 2 years than it used to be, might be a temporary thing...

 

[troutbert]

Probably highly variable by location and year.

But the last 2 years, adding up only 4 outings, lol. Between Poe Paddy and Cherry Run. Of 65 trout caught, 6 were brookies. That's 9.2%. Do I think 9.2% of the trout are brookies? No, they're easier to catch.

In all cases, the evening rise is coming, and you get those first risers like an hr before the rest of the stream blows up. One fish rises repeatedly and kind of talks you into switching to dries, after all it's only gonna increase, right? Those first fish rising were the brookies. So, probably kinda selecting them in a way. Betting the overall % is more like 1-5% in that section. And again, it's become much more common in the last 2 years than it used to be, might be a temporary thing...

Interesting. If the brook trout population is increasing, that's a good thing.

But were you catching brook trout throughout that whole section? Or was it just near and a bit below Swift Run and Panther Run?

People have been catching some brookies below those tribs for a long time. That's not surprising.

But if people are catching brookies with any regularity throughout long stretches of Penns Creek, that is surprising.

There is also a small brookie trib that comes in at Ingleby.

Weikert Run, Cherry Run, and Poe Creek are dominated by browns in their lower sections, so probably have little brookie influence on Penns Creek. At least that was the case in the past.

Has that changed over the years? Stocking has been ended on Weikert Run, and Cherry Run and often that improves brook trout populations, including their downstream distribution. Poe Creek is still stocked, but the numbers have been reduced.

I don't know of any brookie tributaries from the source at Penns Cave downstream to that small trib at Ingleby.

Muddy Creek is a brown trout stream.

Elk and Pine have brook trout populations, but that's many miles upstream, not in their lower sections, which is brown trout water.

 

[silverfox]

Interesting. If the brook trout population is increasing, that's a good thing.

But were you catching brook trout throughout that whole section? Or was it just near and a bit below Swift Run and Panther Run?

People have been catching some brookies below those tribs for a long time. That's not surprising.

But if people are catching brookies with any regularity throughout long stretches of Penns Creek, that is surprising.

There is also a small brookie trib that comes in at Ingleby.

Weikert Run, Cherry Run, and Poe Creek are dominated by browns in their lower sections, so probably have little brookie influence on Penns Creek. At least that was the case in the past.

Has that changed over the years? Stocking has been ended on Weikert Run, and Cherry Run and often that improves brook trout populations, including their downstream distribution. Poe Creek is still stocked, but the numbers have been reduced.

I don't know of any brookie tributaries from the source at Penns Cave downstream to that small trib at Ingleby.

Muddy Creek is a brown trout stream.

Elk and Pine have brook trout populations, but that's many miles upstream, not in their lower sections, which is brown trout water.

I caught brook trout between the mill dam and Coburn years ago. Probably 10 years ago. I caught 2 brook trout in Elk a few years ago. The others were all around Poe Paddy or down by Cherry Run.

 

[pcray1231]

But were you catching brook trout throughout that whole section? Or was it just near and a bit below Swift Run and Panther Run?

The highest 2 of the 6 were Broadwaters pool. The other 4 were below that. 1 was by the cabin down there.

I'd call that "thoughout" that stretch. But I'm not sure if I'd call it "with regularity", given the sample size. Plus, like I said I feel in a way I targeted them. I wasn't saying "I'm going to target brook trout." But I was nymphing away, catching the occasional brown in the late afternoon/early evening, expecting hatches to start and fish to start rising as evening wore on, anticipating the switch to dries. And a fish starts rising before all the others. And I'd switch to dries. And it'd be a brookie. Then that'd be it, I caught it, it was a brookie, and now I'm standing there with a dry fly, nothing at all rising, feeling like an idiot for switching too early. I'd wait a bit, admire the scenery, wait for another to show itself. Nope. Too early yet, and that one only rose because it's a brookie, comon Pat you were catching fish before, now you're just wasting time. Aww screw it I'm switching back to nymphs, and right as I get it all rigged up another fish starts rising down yonder, lol... That's how it goes for me, I swear. I'll switch back to dries and probably miss it...

Till nightfall and every fish in the stream is rising, and they're all browns again. So by acting differently the couple brookies in that stretch put a target on themselves. One of them I actually caught, semi intentionally on a backcast. That one was at prime time, with tons of fish rising steadily. But one started rising in the shallows behind me. Focusing on a pod in front, heard a plop behind, let my backcast fall in the approximate area without even turning around. And yep. Again, he was separate from the group and singled himself out...

 

[Wild_Trouter]

Yea to quote commissioner Brock from the hatcheries and fisheries committee meeting about discontinuing stocking on freeman run when hussar brought up the wild native brook trout in the stream and referenced discontinuation of stocking being to their benefit, he said “This seems like its happening too fast”. He was referencing moving away from stocking where native brook trout exist.

…….thats the guy in charge of PA’s climate change stronghold native brook trout populations. Doesn’t matter that it would be cheaper to just stop wasting money on fish, 65k in grants, and transportation for PFBC hatchery trout. Its stock or bust at PFBC.

Case an point, no conservation involved just a penn state business analysis of how bad hatcheries/stocking is killing their finances what does the smeal college of bussiness in July 2017 recommend they do???

View attachment 1641228540

they can’t follow fisheries science recommendations.

They can’t follow a business consultant’s recommendations.

The only thing they can do is raise and stock fish

I know a landowner with a cabin along Freeman Run. They are part of the problem. As I understand it an upstream landowner stocks it. They are adamantly opposed to cessation of stocking there be it privately or by the PFBC. The complaint I hear from the people I know is that wild fish are small and w/o stocking, Freeman Run will not be a meaningful fishery for them and other landowners. There's that attitude, and then there is this one: https://www.tiogapublishing.com/col...cle_a7e488d6-dc5e-5db5-a051-5c42254fad6b.html

 

[jifigz]

I know a landowner with a cabin along Freeman Run. They are part of the problem. As I understand it an upstream landowner stocks it. They are adamantly opposed to cessation of stocking there be it privately or by the PFBC. The complaint I hear from the people I know is that wild fish are small and w/o stocking, Freeman Run will not be a meaningful fishery for them and other landowners. There's that attitude, and then there is this one: https://www.tiogapublishing.com/col...cle_a7e488d6-dc5e-5db5-a051-5c42254fad6b.html

Bahaha. That article pure rubbish, eh? I like wild trout of all varieties (and yes fellas, I think we need to do what we can to protect and enhance our wild brook trout fisheries) and think the PFBC should end all stocking over all and any wild trout populations.

 

[silverfox]

I know a landowner with a cabin along Freeman Run. They are part of the problem. As I understand it an upstream landowner stocks it. They are adamantly opposed to cessation of stocking there be it privately or by the PFBC. The complaint I hear from the people I know is that wild fish are small and w/o stocking, Freeman Run will not be a meaningful fishery for them and other landowners. There's that attitude, and then there is this one: https://www.tiogapublishing.com/col...cle_a7e488d6-dc5e-5db5-a051-5c42254fad6b.html

"...more than likely you may catch a fish or two before heading a couple miles downstream to where the First Fork of the Sinnemahoning River has been stocked."

Oh, the humanity.