WV Brook Trout

[pcray1231]

In most streams I fish, browns are not noticably bigger than brookies. Maybe a little, but not a lot.

In most of our "big fish water", what you have is browns. Brookies are just uncommon in these places. The occasional brookie does average close to your average browns. Like Penns Creek. I've caught plenty of wild brookies and they are 10-12" just like your typical brown trout is.

I think the only brookies present in such places came from tribs as adults, the young brookies get eaten. Which is why brookies are uncommon in these places in the first place! And I will say that browns have a top tier. In amongst all of the 10-12 inch browns, there's a presence of upper teens fish. There doesn't seem to be the presence of upper teens brookies. They reach the typical size for the stream and stop there.

And in small fish water, you generally have small fish, whether they are brookies or browns. Brown trout people laugh at all the 7" fish and say brookies are small. But, the browns in those same streams are 7" fish.... Again, speaking to the typical fish. The exception being that there's like one 18" monster brown up under some undercut somewhere in that stream, and you may see him chase once, if you're dedicated you might get him after 10 dedicated tries. The monster brookies are only like 12".

So in any given water, the typical brown and typical brookie are very similar in size. But on the top end the population, the maximum sized brookies are smaller than the maximum size browns.

 

[jifigz]

In most streams I fish, browns are not noticably bigger than brookies. Maybe a little, but not a lot.

In most of our "big fish water", what you have is browns. Brookies are just uncommon in these places. The occasional brookie does average close to your average browns. Like Penns Creek. I've caught plenty of wild brookies and they are 10-12" just like your typical brown trout is.

I think the only brookies present in such places came from tribs as adults, the young brookies get eaten. Which is why brookies are uncommon in these places in the first place! And I will say that browns have a top tier. In amongst all of the 10-12 inch browns, there's a presence of upper teens fish. There doesn't seem to be the presence of upper teens brookies. They reach the typical size for the stream and stop there.

And in small fish water, you generally have small fish, whether they are brookies or browns. Brown trout people laugh at all the 7" fish and say brookies are small. But, the browns in those same streams are 7" fish.... Again, speaking to the typical fish. The exception being that there's like one 18" monster brown up under some undercut somewhere in that stream, and you may see him chase once, if you're dedicated you might get him after 10 dedicated tries. The monster brookies are only like 12".

So in any given water, the typical brown and typical brookie are very similar in size. But on the top end the population, the maximum sized brookies are smaller than the maximum size browns.

Okay Pcray, now that you mention it, I, too, would say that I have pulled a brookie out of Penns in the 12" range. It makes me wonder why we don't see a few large brook trout pulled out of Penns. I know Penns is obviously dominated by brown trout, but given the feeder streams in close proximity that hold brookies, such as Swift, Panther, and Big Poe, you would think occasionally a big brookie would come out of Penns. It would have the ability to migrate between the smaller tribs and the mainstem of Penns. If a 10" brookie was in Penns by this point it would be mostly safe from brown trout predation and one would think it would have a good chance of growing large on the rich bug life Penns has to offer if it could only find enough thermal refuge during the hot summer months.

I will disagree though that the brookie streams I frequent that are like 99% brook trout (at least with my rod surverys) the random browns are usually significantly bigger. Say the brookies are running 6-7", the brown I pull out will be 11-12". I don't know, just my observation.

 

[silverfox]

In most streams I fish, browns are not noticably bigger than brookies. Maybe a little, but not a lot.

In most of our "big fish water", what you have is browns. Brookies are just uncommon in these places. The occasional brookie does average close to your average browns. Like Penns Creek. I've caught plenty of wild brookies and they are 10-12" just like your typical brown trout is.

I think the only brookies present in such places came from tribs as adults, the young brookies get eaten. Which is why brookies are uncommon in these places in the first place! And I will say that browns have a top tier. In amongst all of the 10-12 inch browns, there's a presence of upper teens fish. There doesn't seem to be the presence of upper teens brookies. They reach the typical size for the stream and stop there.

And in small fish water, you generally have small fish, whether they are brookies or browns. Brown trout people laugh at all the 7" fish and say brookies are small. But, the browns in those same streams are 7" fish.... Again, speaking to the typical fish. The exception being that there's like one 18" monster brown up under some undercut somewhere in that stream, and you may see him chase once, if you're dedicated you might get him after 10 dedicated tries. The monster brookies are only like 12".

So in any given water, the typical brown and typical brookie are very similar in size. But on the top end the population, the maximum sized brookies are smaller than the maximum size browns.

Pretty much spot on. Though in places where there aren't other species (outside PA) that tends to fall apart. I missed a huge brook trout in Virginia last year. I climbed up on the bank and crawled out to see if I could see it, and it was a tank. Probably the biggest brook trout I've seen in the wild.

I've had days on local streams where all I caught were browns, with the average being 5 or 6 inches and 1 or 2 that were maybe 10 to 12. This is why the "iF aLL i CaN fIsH fOr aRe 8 iNcH fIsH iLL qUiT fIsHiNg" comments are so absurd. The places I have an issue with being taken over by brown trout are places where brown trout struggle to exceed 12 inches, just like the brook trout that used to live there.

I finally watched the other episodes in this series. Of course, the PA episode is all about brown trout. I think we should just officially change the state fish to brown trout and be done with it. It's pretty clearly a pervasive attitude that brook trout should be written off completely. Might as well make it official.

 

[Wild_Trouter]

Awesome video! I like that Dustin mentions that the idea that brook trout are small throughout Appalachia is false. I know an 18-inch brook trout was confirmed via electrofishing last year (not in Pennsylvania).

It seems like they're making incredible progress in WV

That was an interesting comment he made. WV has it's act together!

I've done a lot of native brookie fishing over the years in Pa, my biggest being 13.5" back in 2009. When I'm fishing these streams and see some of the deep pools, especially the one's below some of the water falls, I'm all but convinced that they hold at least one in the 15"+ range. They're deep and tough to get down to, but I do believe they exist in some Pa streams

I'm a little late to the discussion after posting the video. I can say that I caught an 18" brookie at BSC in the Ditch and another below the Ditch that was 16" (have marks on rod to measure). Were they wild, stocked (intentionally or escapees)...I dunno? They were perfect in every way, but with BSC it's hard to know for sure. I've caught a 15" WBT here in Centre County along with quite a few in the 11"-12" with an occasional 13" (VERY RARE) thrown in over the years across NCPA. They are here in PA at times depending on many environmental factors. Some years are much better than others. I can also say that I travel to WMD (Garrett County), CMD (Catoctins), EWV, VA (SNP and BRP), ET and WNC throughout the year. I do find the average WBT to be larger and more plentiful in the areas listed outside of PA, and based on my catch results, I catch more >12" WBT in those areas. PA could definitely manage this resource much better and provide more opportunities/increased chances at large WBT.

For those that might doubt that PA can grow large WBT, please scroll through Frank Nale's posting for his fish of the year. https://www.huntingpa.com/threads/frank-nales-2021-trout-season-summary.333038/

 

[wildtrout2]

Even though he's not a fly fisherman, I respect Frank Nale's accomplishments, big time. He's caught many trout that most folks just dream of. His photography is quite good as well. Also, the number of wild tiger trout he's caught is mind boggling!

 

[silverfox]

Even though he's not a fly fisherman, I respect Frank Nale's accomplishments, big time. He's caught many trout that most folks just dream of. His photography is quite good as well. Also, the number of wild tiger trout he's caught is mind boggling!

I agree 100%. Fantastic photos and stories. I think frank covers a lot of miles. I know he volunteers a lot of time for conservation efforts (terrestrial/avian) as well.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Okay Pcray, now that you mention it, I, too, would say that I have pulled a brookie out of Penns in the 12" range. It makes me wonder why we don't see a few large brook trout pulled out of Penns. I know Penns is obviously dominated by brown trout, but given the feeder streams in close proximity that hold brookies, such as Swift, Panther, and Big Poe, you would think occasionally a big brookie would come out of Penns. It would have the ability to migrate between the smaller tribs and the mainstem of Penns. If a 10" brookie was in Penns by this point it would be mostly safe from brown trout predation and one would think it would have a good chance of growing large on the rich bug life Penns has to offer if it could only find enough thermal refuge during the hot summer months.

I will disagree though that the brookie streams I frequent that are like 99% brook trout (at least with my rod surverys) the random browns are usually significantly bigger. Say the brookies are running 6-7", the brown I pull out will be 11-12". I don't know, just my observation.

Penns creek is an interesting one, my second fattest brook trout in PA has come from Penns creek, 10”. I agree that Penns its self is capable of bigger brook trout than 10-12 inches. This is just on the basis that people are already hitting the foot long mark there now and considering the following.

Fisheries science demonstrates that brown trout push brook trout out of prime feeding lies and thermal refuge. This likely causes a decreases inthe length and quality of the growing season in penns main-stem itself for brook trout . When the heat gets turned up and those brown trout seek the best large and small thermal refuge they get to stay in penns and gorge on cress bugs, sculpins, aquatic insects, and crayfish all summer. And during the cold 3 seasons a year when thermal refuge not at a premium the prime feeding lies are taken by browns.

I caught about 15 this past spring in penns fished it 3 times none were in the middle of the deep pools where I get my bigger day time browns in there. They were in very skinny riffles or hugging the bank in deeper pools for most part.

 

[silverfox]

Penns creek is an interesting one, my second fattest brook trout in PA has come from Penns creek, 10”. I agree that Penns its self is capable of bigger brook trout than 10-12 inches. This is just on the basis that people are already hitting the foot long mark there now and considering the following.

Fisheries science demonstrates that brown trout push brook trout out of prime feeding lies and thermal refuge. This likely causes a decreases inthe length and quality of the growing season in penns main-stem itself for brook trout . When the heat gets turned up and those brown trout seek the best large and small thermal refuge they get to stay in penns and gorge on cress bugs, sculpins, aquatic insects, and crayfish all summer. And during the cold 3 seasons a year when thermal refuge not at a premium the prime feeding lies are taken by browns.

I caught about 15 this past spring in penns fished it 3 times none were in the middle of the deep pools where I get my bigger day time browns in there. They were in very skinny riffles or hugging the bank in deeper pools for most part.

I think you're exactly correct. The species is obviously capable of reaching 14 -18 inches in the mid-Atlantic region, so it's not like they simply can't exceed 12 inches in Penns Ck. because the species is incapable of it. So what factors are present that might prevent them from reaching the maximum potential size? I'd say temperature and competition if I had to guess. So they're spending more time stressed out than feeding.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Okay Pcray, now that you mention it, I, too, would say that I have pulled a brookie out of Penns in the 12" range. It makes me wonder why we don't see a few large brook trout pulled out of Penns. I know Penns is obviously dominated by brown trout, but given the feeder streams in close proximity that hold brookies, such as Swift, Panther, and Big Poe, you would think occasionally a big brookie would come out of Penns. It would have the ability to migrate between the smaller tribs and the mainstem of Penns. If a 10" brookie was in Penns by this point it would be mostly safe from brown trout predation and one would think it would have a good chance of growing large on the rich bug life Penns has to offer if it could only find enough thermal refuge during the hot summer months.

I will disagree though that the brookie streams I frequent that are like 99% brook trout (at least with my rod surverys) the random browns are usually significantly bigger. Say the brookies are running 6-7", the brown I pull out will be 11-12". I don't know, just my observation.

I disagree.
The Lackawanna River has a large gap between population structure of smaller fish and giant fish.

The theory is the giant are eating the 12" fish.

This has been a well discussed theory by regulars and A&G outfitters.

IMO the browns in the Lackawanna on average are bigger than those in Penns. The brook trout on average are smaller than those 12" fish that get eaten in the Lackawanna. Brook trout tend to start desiring to move are 8" per Maryland studies.


It is not out of the realm of reality to believe they get eaten by Penns larger browns.

 

[Mike]

Just a clarifying comment on the number of larger wild ST and wild BT in the PFBC electrofishing database. The last time I worked with those data was for the 2002 symposium. Those data were quite robust and were collected statewide from 1976-2001. Only 1.5 percent of the wild ST were 9” and longer and 1.5% of the wild BT were 16” and longer.

I don’t know that it has changed much, but if it has my suspicion is that the percentages of larger fish would be lower because of the unassessed waters surveys. So many of those streams have been smaller streams and “trickles” that infrequently would have been sampled prior to that program having been initiated “around” the 2008-2010 time frame, at least that was the situation in Area 6, but I suspect it applied elsewhere as well, given the effort to find wild trout wherever they were. In large part: Smaller habitat=smaller fish, but as I have mentioned before, you should also look at the width to depth ratio, even in isolated pieces of a given stream. Generally speaking regarding streams, and perhaps not so much on larger rivers like the Delaware, a lower ratio encourages production of - or occupation by - bigger trout.

An old time demonstration of “habitat size impacts on fish growth/max size was instructive…fish of the same species reached a certain maximum size in a given aquarium or other enclosure and essentially or completely stopped growing. Then when moved to a larger enclosure, a new maximum size was achieved. Source of info: PSU Ichthyology course.

 

[Silent Ocelot]

Pretty much spot on. Though in places where there aren't other species (outside PA) that tends to fall apart. I missed a huge brook trout in Virginia last year. I climbed up on the bank and crawled out to see if I could see it, and it was a tank. Probably the biggest brook trout I've seen in the wild.

I've had days on local streams where all I caught were browns, with the average being 5 or 6 inches and 1 or 2 that were maybe 10 to 12. This is why the "iF aLL i CaN fIsH fOr aRe 8 iNcH fIsH iLL qUiT fIsHiNg" comments are so absurd. The places I have an issue with being taken over by brown trout are places where brown trout struggle to exceed 12 inches, just like the brook trout that used to live there.

I finally watched the other episodes in this series. Of course, the PA episode is all about brown trout. I think we should just officially change the state fish to brown trout and be done with it. It's pretty clearly a pervasive attitude that brook trout should be written off completely. Might as well make it official.

No dawg, the state fish should be a palomino.

 

[silverfox]

An old time demonstration of “habitat size impacts on fish growth/max size was instructive…fish of the same species reached a certain maximum size in a given aquarium or other enclosure and essentially or completely stopped growing. Then when moved to a larger enclosure, a new maximum size was achieved. Source of info: PSU Ichthyology course.

I've always known that to be a myth. It's not the enclosure size that limits the maximum size; it's the conditions in the enclosure. If you shove a red-tail catfish in a 50-gallon aquarium, it will grow until the waste/volume ratio causes stunting. Source: 12 years in tropical fish aquaculture.

How did Big Spring produce 18 inch brook trout in a 150 meter long x 8 meter wide ditch if habitat size dictates maximum fish size? A stream isn't an aquarium.

Related/unrelated, I've always wondered why they stopped posting these from BS. It seemed to be showing a steady decline in maximum brook trout size (all 3 species really). After 2004 the only thing they posted was lbs/acre. I'd love to see a chart like this from 2004 to today.

 

[sarce]

Okay Pcray, now that you mention it, I, too, would say that I have pulled a brookie out of Penns in the 12" range. It makes me wonder why we don't see a few large brook trout pulled out of Penns. I know Penns is obviously dominated by brown trout, but given the feeder streams in close proximity that hold brookies, such as Swift, Panther, and Big Poe, you would think occasionally a big brookie would come out of Penns. It would have the ability to migrate between the smaller tribs and the mainstem of Penns. If a 10" brookie was in Penns by this point it would be mostly safe from brown trout predation and one would think it would have a good chance of growing large on the rich bug life Penns has to offer if it could only find enough thermal refuge during the hot summer months.

My guess is because a 10" brookie that reached that size in an infertile trib is an old fish. By the time it's big enough to hold its own in Penns it doesn't have much lifespan left.

 

[Mike]

I've always known that to be a myth. It's not the enclosure size that limits the maximum size; it's the conditions in the enclosure. If you shove a red-tail catfish in a 50-gallon aquarium, it will grow until the waste/volume ratio causes stunting. Source: 12 years in tropical fish aquaculture.

How did Big Spring produce 18 inch brook trout in a 150 meter long x 8 meter wide ditch if habitat size dictates maximum fish size? A stream isn't an aquarium.

Related/unrelated, I've always wondered why they stopped posting these from BS. It seemed to be showing a steady decline in maximum brook trout size (all 3 species really). After 2004 the only thing they posted was lbs/acre. I'd love to see a chart like this from 2004 to today.


View attachment 1641228501

I doubt that a professor, who was highly respected nationwide within the scientific fisheries community, was basing the info on anything but an experiment in controlled conditions or on a published paper.

As for Big Spring’s ditch, it fit perfectly with my comment from the scientific literature regarding the width to depth ratio. In fact, it was one of five examples that would immediately come to mind if someone were to ask me what such a stream or segment of a stream might look like. Four of the five would be in portions of the Fishing Ck narrows, much of Logan Branch in the “old days,” Kish narrows, and the more artificial situation, the Big Spring ditch. The fifth is in a tiny unnamed freestone trib in southeastern Pa.

Actually, the largest ST that I ever electrofished from the ditch in a number of 2x per year sampling runs was 21 inches long. The largest BT was 27”. That the ditch would produce an 18” ST is not surprising at all. Heck, a much smaller limestoner in Berks produced a 17 incher from beneath a bridge, another artificially narrow and deep spot on a creek (low width to depth ratio). The spot was close to the springs. Year around growth close to a limestone spring with generally ideal temps, unlimited food, plus good habitat, including the low width to depth ratio, and cover will grow trout quite impressively in the wild.

 

[pcray1231]

So what factors are present that might prevent them from reaching the maximum potential size?

Just a guess.

Young brookies dont survive in Penns. They get eaten.

So the only brookies in Penns were already adults when they got there. They begin to grow quickly in that water, but were already pretty old before that faster growth started and brookies don't live that long.

If a fish is 3 years old, and still only 7" long. Gets to bigger water. But its life expectancy is 5. How big can it realistically get?

 

[Mike]

If a fish is 3 years old, and still only 7" long. Gets to bigger water. But its life expectancy is 5. How big can it realistically get?

Probably 2-2.5 inches of growth per yr if it stays in Penns, so a max of around 11-12 inches at age 5. Even if it lived longer, growth slows as fish age so the gain would not be the same as in my first sentence.

 

[JeffP]

Okay Pcray, now that you mention it, I, too, would say that I have pulled a brookie out of Penns in the 12" range. It makes me wonder why we don't see a few large brook trout pulled out of Penns. I know Penns is obviously dominated by brown trout, but given the feeder streams in close proximity that hold brookies, such as Swift, Panther, and Big Poe, you would think occasionally a big brookie would come out of Penns. It would have the ability to migrate between the smaller tribs and the mainstem of Penns. If a 10" brookie was in Penns by this point it would be mostly safe from brown trout predation and one would think it would have a good chance of growing large on the rich bug life Penns has to offer if it could only find enough thermal refuge during the hot summer months.

I will disagree though that the brookie streams I frequent that are like 99% brook trout (at least with my rod surverys) the random browns are usually significantly bigger. Say the brookies are running 6-7", the brown I pull out will be 11-12". I don't know, just my observation.

I'm just not sure those 3 streams have a ton of brookies in them. I look at where Swift and Panther run in to Penns and I just wander how much access there really is between Penns and these feeders. Even if there are a decent number, what are the odds of catching them in the big creek when there are so many browns?

 

[JeffP]

Probably 2-2.5 inches of growth per yr if it stays in Penns, so a max of around 11-12 inches at age 5. Even if it lived longer, growth slows as fish age so the gain would not be the same as in my first sentence.

Probably 2-2.5 inches of growth per yr if it stays in Penns, so a max of around 11-12 inches at age 5. Even if it lived longer, growth slows as fish age so the gain would not be the same as in my first sentence.

I just have a hard time believing a brookie can survive a summer in Penns. And even more surprised a decent sized fish can survive in the tribs as low as they get. Those creeks are absolute trickles in the summer.

 

[salmonoid]

Absolutely. I don't know how many times I've heard of these 12+ inch brook trout that are really 10-1/2 to 11 at best. 6 inches is 8, 8 is 10, 10 is 12, 11 is 14. The ol fisherman's measurements.

The thing that's always caused a problem in PA is all the brook trout stocking. That's changing, but you still see the posts with 14 inch "native" brook trout with half a tail and a nub for a pectoral fin.

Old angling literature is often cited as a source of old-time "big" brookies in PA. But I've always been skeptical of it because it was generally written by anglers. That's not to say that there weren't the isolated bigger fish but I don't think there was ever a time that the streams and rivers of PA were filled with 3-year old lake run steelhead-sized brookies.

And while I also agree that many fish sizing estimates are padded, whether intentionally or not, I can speak only for myself and say that I measure and estimate conservatively. I know that if I spread my hand, the distance between my pinky tip and thumb tip is just shy of 9", so that's a quick ruler for me on any fish. And if I don't do the unthinkable and tape a fish, and if I do the next unthinkable thing and, gasp, take a picture of a fish, there are apps that you can use to fairly accurately estimate length of an object, based on knowing the length of another object. So, for instance, if I know the distance from the tip of my finger to my elbow, and I'm holding a fish, the fish length can be estimated relatively accurately. I can guarantee that I've caught several of those 0.4% percentile sized native PA brookies.

 

[JeffP]

I'm a little late to the discussion after posting the video. I can say that I caught an 18" brookie at BSC in the Ditch and another below the Ditch that was 16" (have marks on rod to measure). Were they wild, stocked (intentionally or escapees)...I dunno? They were perfect in every way, but with BSC it's hard to know for sure. I've caught a 15" WBT here in Centre County along with quite a few in the 11"-12" with an occasional 13" (VERY RARE) thrown in over the years across NCPA. They are here in PA at times depending on many environmental factors. Some years are much better than others. I can also say that I travel to WMD (Garrett County), CMD (Catoctins), EWV, VA (SNP and BRP), ET and WNC throughout the year. I do find the average WBT to be larger and more plentiful in the areas listed outside of PA, and based on my catch results, I catch more >12" WBT in those areas. PA could definitely manage this resource much better and provide more oppor

Nale's catches are pretty amazing.