Why streams with no harvest?

[Hook_Jaw]

When you walk the stream from coburn at the tunnel to the out bridge in Ingleby it looks like General Lee and his troops were through there not so bad in the winter but enough Im starting to fish it less and less and fishing fishing creek more and more.

Not really sure what has changed but the drastic low water hurt the stream the other year lowest I have ever seen it personally. The regulation change heck i don't know if that did anything I just think the little ones are faster and get it before the big ones have a chance sometimes.

I guess fishing isn't suppose to be easy the challenge should make it funner? lol

 

[afishinado]

silverfox wrote:
I think what every conservation/wild trout fisherman in this state struggles with is that the state is not managed from a "wild-trout-first" perspective. It simply isn't, and no amount of fish and boat commission propaganda can convince me otherwise. Everything revolves around the stocking/harvest of stocked fish.

You couldn't have seasons and harvest the way they are currently if the focus was on wild trout. Not in a state with so many anglers and so much accessible water.

The chances of anything changing from a regulation standpoint to reinforce wild trout populations are about 0%, so I'm not sure we should get all wound up about theoretical season changes.

While I'd like to see the PFBC put more emphasis on wild trout conservation, but the fact of the matter is, there are a whole lot more wild trout streams and fish now when compared to past decades.

Some of it could be credited to stricker water quality standards along with the remediation of the way too numerous AMD streams in PA, but the fact still remains, there are more wild trout streams and wild trout now.

I do give the PFBC credit for some of the gains in wild trout populations, especially because their surveys of streams in recent years which precipitates the upgrades to protections of those streams.

I guess it's a matter if you see the stream half-full or half-empty...

 

[silverfox]

afishinado wrote:

While I'd like to see the PFBC put more emphasis on wild trout conservation, the fact of the matter is, there is a whole lot more wild trout streams and fish now when compared to past decades.

Some of it could be credited to sticker water quality standards along with the remediation of the way too numerous AMD streams in PA, but the fact still remains, there are more wild trout streams and wild trout now.

I do give the PFBC credit for some of the gains in wild trout populations, especially because their surveys of streams in recent years which precipitates the upgrades to protections of those streams.

I guess it's a matter if you see the stream half-full or half-empty...

It's not that I think they do nothing, it's just that it's not their priority. Otherwise, the hatchery budget would be a fraction of the conservation/biologist budget.

 

[krayfish2]

Tom,

in my completely fictional proposal which will never be taken seriously, you have the following:

#1 - the state ceases all stocking on high quality wild fisheries.

#2 - Trout fishing in the state is open year round on class C / stocked waters.

#3 - High quality wild trout fisheries are closed from October 15 - March 1st. Thermal stress isn't a main concern because they got to be quality fisheries by having cold water. If it's a stream that does get marginal in the middle of summer, the responsibility relies on the idiot swinging the fly pole not to fish it if the temps are questionable.

#4 - Every stream would be open to spin and fly angling. (except SR waters)

#5 - Special regs of artificial lures only (single hook spin or fly). If the SR water is a high quality wild fishery, it would close Oct - Mar

So...your theory of more anglers being pushed to Spring / Penns are out the window because they'd meet the definition of high quality wild fishery and would be closed.

The state could space out their stocking over the entire year rather than dumping truckloads in a week before opening day.

 

[sarce]

silverfox wrote:

I think what every conservation/wild trout fisherman in this state struggles with is that the state is not managed from a "wild-trout-first" perspective. It simply isn't, and no amount of fish and boat commission propaganda can convince me otherwise. Everything revolves around the stocking/harvest of stocked fish.

You couldn't have seasons and harvest the way they are currently if the focus was on wild trout. Not in a state with so many anglers and so much accessible water.

The chances of anything changing from a regulation standpoint to reinforce wild trout populations are about 0%, so I'm not sure we should get all wound up about theoretical season changes.

I think this is spot-on. The reason I'd support something generally in line with what krayfish is thinking is that it is more protective of wild trout than what is currently in place. I wouldn't be that thrilled about not being able to fish some wild trout streams in winter, I'm not that big of a believer that wading is a cause of poor YOY numbers. In fact I think statewide it is essentially a non-factor. But I think it is a smart idea on some of the heavily fished wild trout waters. Like kray said, try it a few years and see if it makes any difference.

 

[afishinado]

krayfish2 wrote:
Tom,

in my completely fictional proposal which will never be taken seriously, you have the following:

#1 - the state ceases all stocking on high quality wild fisheries.

#2 - Trout fishing in the state is open year round on class C / stocked waters.

#3 - High quality wild trout fisheries are closed from October 15 - March 1st. Thermal stress isn't a main concern because they got to be quality fisheries by having cold water. If it's a stream that does get marginal in the middle of summer, the responsibility relies on the idiot swinging the fly pole not to fish it if the temps are questionable.

#4 - Every stream would be open to spin and fly angling. (except SR waters)

#5 - Special regs of artificial lures only (single hook spin or fly). If the SR water is a high quality wild fishery, it would close Oct - Mar

So...your theory of more anglers being pushed to Spring / Penns are out the window because they'd meet the definition of high quality wild fishery and would be closed.

The state could space out their stocking over the entire year rather than dumping truckloads in a week before opening day.

Closing all wild trout streams including special reg streams to fishing for half the year will only limit our opportunities to fish while not having an appreciable difference in the populations of wild trout (find studies that say it will).

You are advocating closing the season for half the year for all wild trout streams in the winter and relying on anglers to not be idiots by fishing in the summer >

You wrote above >

"If it's a stream that does get marginal in the middle of summer, the responsibility relies on the idiot swinging the fly pole not to fish it if the temps are questionable."

Why not rely on anglers not being idiots and using good judgement in the cold water season instead of the hotwater season?! There are a lot less anglers in the winter, they are not allowed to harvest any fish, and there are hundreds of studies that prove warm water angling has the potential to cause very high mortality of trout.

If you are looking to save fish, why not close streams to wild trout fishing in the summer, like Montana which allows fishing allowed in the winter but "hoot owl" alerts during the hottest months. That would make more sense and save more fish.

Bassackwards, or actually troutackwards I say.....

Wisconsin, I believe closes the season in mid October and opens it in early January. That may be something I would support.

Only allowing fishing in the spring would not be good for many of us that don't trout fish in the summer much because we are not the "idiots" you mentioned. I know you fish the Upper D in the summer because it's a tailwater. We can't all fish there, although on my last few trips seems like everyone does! So if WT streams were closed both in the fall and winter and many responsible anglers choose not to fish in the summer to give the trout a break, the K-fish regs leave many anglers out in the cold, but without a fishing pole in their hands!

 

[PennKev]

^Well said.

 

[Swattie87]

Try this on for size...

The point of the angle I’m coming from in this thread is that a case COULD be made to close Trout streams from angling for one reason or another at nearly all times of the year. Clearly, no one is supporting that.

There’s no winning this debate, or one right answer. Streams systems are different, and have different needs…This makes for difficult regulations to enforce and interpret, if you try to handle things on a case by case basis. A small, forested Class A in NC PA or the Poconos does not need thermal protection in the Summer. Penns Creek does. They’re both Class A. Penns Creek (for the most part) doesn’t have native Brook Trout to protect. The small Poconos Class A does. Do you regulate them the same, despite the fact that their needs are clearly different? You see the point.

This is all just for the fun of discussion. The current regs aren’t perfect, but I think they largely get it right more than they don’t. Regardless, they’re unlikely to change in any big way.

If I’m ever PFBC Dictator…Here’s what I’d do (This makes sense, in my mind, but is far too complicated to actually be implemented):

1. Size minimum for harvest of Rainbow or Brown Trout remains 7”. Size minimum for Brook Trout is 9”. This will protect 99% of wild Brook Trout in PA. Brook Trout will no longer be stocked.

2. No tackle restrictions, except in designated special reg C&R areas – Which I would suggest should be ALO. No more FFO’s. C&R’s are open to year-round fishing, and can be stocked, if Class A threshold is not met, see below.

3. Class A threshold is now 20 kg/ha. (Current Class B minimum.) In mixed population streams, you add the biomass of all wild trout together, regardless of species, to determine if that threshold is met – This isn’t exactly how it currently works. No stocking in Class A’s, period. 2 Trout per angler, per day. Class A streams are closed to all angling from October 1 to January 1 (Typical spawning period in PA).

Class A’s that require thermal protection during the summer months are closed to all angling July 1 (instead of October 1), to January 1. This would be on a case by case basis based on temperature analysis and angler usage. Penns and Little J would surely fall under this. Streams like BFC, Spring, Yellow, Kish, and Bald Eagle probably would too. There may be others that would fall into the "new" Class A category and need thermal protection too…Upper D, Lehigh, Yellow Breeches, Frankstown Branch, Kettle Creek, Little Skuke, Muddy Creek, Clarion River would be examples of prime suspects with high angler usage and at least borderline thermal issues that may have enough wild Trout to be Class A at a 20 kg/ha threshold.

4. Any stream other than those that are Class A designated, as above, or a designated C&R area, are “General Trout Waters” and are eligible to be stocked. Regardless of whether they're stocked or not, these streams are open to year-round fishing. January 1 to September 30th, 3 Trout per angler, per day. October 1 to December 31, C&R.

 

[Hook_Jaw]

Yeah I would be for closing it in the summer I agree with that.

 

[rrt]

A lot of interesting, well-reasoned posts -- thought provoking.

I'd like to know where Mike is on all of this, as a former PFBC biologist. Are there true biological reasons for these?

Also, remember, this all started regarding Spring Creek. I think Mike's perspective on SC specifically would be interesting. I think some of the thread's early thoughts about the overhandling of the trout was a big issue, but the thread seems to have strayed from that idea. I think Mike's specific thoughts about that would be of interest, too.

(Anyhow, I played basketball this morning, and I don't have enough energy left to even think about fishing today! )

 

[Hook_Jaw]

Wonder if the indians thought about this stuff

 

[krayfish2]

Afish wrote:
I know you fish the Upper D in the summer because it's a tailwater.

Well, it looks like you've nailed me on that one.....except it's a swing and a miss. Over the last 20 years, I've probably spent 20 days fishing there between June 10 and September 10. Sorry to disappoint you. My fishing is based on flows and water temp. Some years I might start fishing April 5 and other years, I might not get rolling until May 5. As a general rule, most anglers / guides feel it's fine to fish up to 70, 71 or 72 degrees. I don't. Once the water temp gets near 68, I keep an eye on it. If it hits 68.1, the day is over. DISCLAIMER: I will fish the Tully up to 94 degrees. Why? Stocked, heron plague and the fish are as good as dead due to the fly flinger swarm that will continue to fish with 12x and water temps approaching 80.

I do find it amusing that you mentioned the D and the crowds. Why is it so crowded? Big wild fish is my guess.....and it closes for 5-6 months out of the year. Wonder if the closure October til April has anything to do with the quality fish (

 

[Swattie87]

krayfish2 wrote:

swattie wrote:
4. Any stream other than those that are Class A designated, as above, or a designated C&R area, are “General Trout Waters” and are eligible to be stocked. Regardless of whether they're stocked or not, these streams are open to year-round fishing. January 1 to September 30th, 3 Trout per angler, per day. October 1 to December 31, C&R.

Why stop harvest on stocked waters? Mike has repeatedly explained that the survival of stocked fish over the winter is virtually zero. They are put in the stream to be utilized. If you have a slot limit in place of 9"-14", the larger spawning stock should be released and able to continue on with their spawning.

In theory, there could still be wild fish in these streams that are being given the opportunity to spawn then. I could go either way on that one though.

 

[Jessed]

I understand the survival rate of stockies is close to 0 on small average ATW streams. What about bigger trout streams like the tully, penns etc where you get fall stocking and Fish are expected to make it to spring.

 

[afishinado]

krayfish2 wrote:


I do find it amusing that you mentioned the D and the crowds. Why is it so crowded? Big wild fish is my guess.....and it closes for 5-6 months out of the year. Wonder if the closure October til April has anything to do with the quality fish (

 

[rrt]

For Mike --

I just did go back and read your early posts. But, I would like to hear your thoughts about Spring Creek specifically and on handling 6.2 times per year, too.

How do you think that lots of handling affects the overall population and the size of the trout on Spring Creek?

My notes from the '80s and early '90s reveal that the size of Spring Creek's trout was pretty nice, with fairly good numbers of trout between 14 and 17 inches, with realistic chances of landing larger trout fairly often during the hatches. I realize this is anecdotal evidence, but in my trips to Spring after that before I pretty much quit going there reveal that the trout were much smaller than they had been.

Your thoughts?

 

[krayfish2]

Understand completely Tom. We've lost some guys in the group due to the shitshow it's become. I've reached my limit quite often and end up fishing less than prime conditions in order to stay away from the crowds. It's not much different than Penns during a number of hatches or Spring during the Sulphur hatch. If I'm going to make the trip, have to try 5 locations to find a fishable spot....at least I'm catching fish bigger than 9-11 like on Spring

 

[DaveS]

My anecdotal evidence is pretty much spot on with rrt. I don’t avoid Spring Creek. It still offers up some good days, but I do try to avoid weekends and Sulphers.

Sadly, I’m avoiding the D this Spring too. It has become a Sh!t show. And I love that place, the challenges of the Trout and mostly the guys I fish with there. But constantly hopscotching drift boats, has soured me.

Plus I was catching some real nice trout elsewhere. In less crowded spots.

 

[larkmark]

Dave S and rrt- ditto for me
I just keep moving on

 

[Fly-Swatter]

DaveS, regarding Big D: Sadly, I feel the same. It reminds me of this Yogi Berra quote "Nobody Goes There Anymore, It’s Too Crowded".