Which wild trout streams improving or declining in PA?

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Ph of kettle at cross forks is around 7

 

[salmonoid]

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
I never said I measured kettle, just the generally that freestoners are low.

Here is a study done on a kettle creek trib. Might help.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.kettlecreek.org/uploads/2/5/6/0/25607137/water_quality_monitoring_report.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiAn9HhjYfdAhWFwVkKHd53BysQFjAJegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw3N2x54AnucxgIs99mVvsg_

His readings could be accurate looking at this, but I think they are a hair on the low side.

One's a stream that is impaired by AMD (Twomile) and one is not (upper Kettle). If someone is measuring a pH of 5 on upper Kettle, either his litmus strips are faulty or there's an unidentified point source of acid somewhere. pH is logarithmic so a pH of 5 is 100 times more acidic than 7, which is a bit more than a hair ;-)

Interesting to see that Kettle is basic as the day goes on, likely due to photosynthesis removing CO2 from the water.

 

[salmonoid]

troutbert wrote:

afishinado wrote:

troutbert wrote:
I don't think the streams I mentioned (Kettle, Cross Fork, Hammersley, upper Slate Run) have decreasing trout populations.

Just that on these streams there seems to be a shift in the ratio, towards more brook trout and fewer brown trout.

^That's interesting.

Do you have any idea if that's actually the case and why it would be happening?

I think that is happening on SOME freestone streams, based on my own fishing, talking to other anglers, from info from a fisheries biologist in NW PA, and from one in NCPA.

It would be interesting to see the electrofishing surveys from some of those streams to see what they show.

Regarding the cause, I don't know.

This shift does not seem to be happening on all freestone streams. There are other freestoners that still have lots of brown trout way upstream, where the streams are quite small.

I find a lot depends on conditions; electrofishing would be the only way to prove this theory. I've fished streams where I couldn't buy a brown for most of the day (80/20 or 90/10 brook to brown ratios). Fished them the next year in high water conditions and it was completely flipped. One stream I fished in Central PA in a thunderstorm produced 90/10 brown/brooks one day. Fished it the next day and would have been hard pressed to know that browns were even present.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Correct and if he is getting low readings it is likely because of all the rain sal, making his readings a hair off from mid 5. Simply because normal stream water chemistry is 6-7 on the PH scale and The normal PH of rain is 5. Kettle is 7. Depending on when he takes them vs the rain....mid 5 is plausible at times.

Adult fish die at 3
Reproduction affected at 4
5.5 no bother to them, in fact freshwater fish do well at that level.

Oh woe is the trout. How does he ever ever survive in such acidic condition

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Unrelated but I just noticed they removed the t-alk from the class a list. Shame, it was a good measure to find limestone streams.


Improved: Swatara
Lackawanna
Lower Letort
Fishing creek lancaster

Declining: LV streams

 

[Prospector]

afishinado wrote:

troutbert wrote:
I don't think the streams I mentioned (Kettle, Cross Fork, Hammersley, upper Slate Run) have decreasing trout populations.

Just that on these streams there seems to be a shift in the ratio, towards more brook trout and fewer brown trout.

^That's interesting.

Do you have any idea if that's actually the case and why it would be happening?

I posed this same question to a resident of the Kettle Creek Valley. I was talking specifically about Cross Fork Creek but his answer applies to all three streams. I’ve consistently fished Cross Fork Creek starting in the late 70s. Back in those days it seemed like 3 wild brook to 1 wild brown. I told the fellow it makes no sense that I rarely catch a wild brown in Cross Fork.

Very matter of factly, he said “well you know many of the brook trout purists up here kill every wild brown they catch in streams like cross fork that they perceive to be brook trout streams”. This was in 2015 and I was stunned to hear that. Since then I’ve heard the confessions of a wild brown killer more than once. It’s even been in print on this forum very recently.

Now I’m not sure if folks with those beliefs are fully responsible for the decline. However with many fly fishers taking great care to handle fish with minimal contact to boost their survival rate when returned to the water, it’s not hard to comprehend that young brown trout tossed on the bank or sustain a broken neck are not going to be caught again.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Dwight I found it.
If you look at the Upper Kettle Creek Fish Habitat Conservation Plan from 2002, pages 10 and 11 basically say exactly what I am saying.
I can't copy and paste it from that PDF on my phone.

However the base stream flow being basic has nothing to do with photosynthesis removing CO2 but rather bicarbonate suspended solids in the water.

His readings are likely accurate if he took them after all this rain.

 

[troutbert]

Prospector wrote:

afishinado wrote:

troutbert wrote:
I don't think the streams I mentioned (Kettle, Cross Fork, Hammersley, upper Slate Run) have decreasing trout populations.

Just that on these streams there seems to be a shift in the ratio, towards more brook trout and fewer brown trout.

^That's interesting.

Do you have any idea if that's actually the case and why it would be happening?

I posed this same question to a resident of the Kettle Creek Valley. I was talking specifically about Cross Fork Creek but his answer applies to all three streams. I’ve consistently fished Cross Fork Creek starting in the late 70s. Back in those days it seemed like 3 wild brook to 1 wild brown. I told the fellow it makes no sense that I rarely catch a wildbrown in Cross Fork.

Very matter of factly, he said “well you know many of the brook trout purists up here kill every wild brown they catch in streams like cross fork that they perceive to be brook trout streams”. This was in 2015 and I was stunned to hear that. Since then I’ve heard the confessions of a wild brown killer more than once. It’s even been in print on this forum very recently.

Now I’m not sure if folks with those beliefs are fully responsible for the decline. However with many fly fishers taking great care to handle fish with minimal contact to boost their survival rate when returned to the water, it’s not hard to comprehend that young brown trout tossed on the bank or sustain a broken neck are not going to be caught again.

I'm not stunned that someone said that. People are likely to say anything. There are many people who are resentful and fearful about all the discussion of brook trout as being important, because they fear this will lead to efforts to eradicate browns and they prefer brown trout fishing.

But I think that theory is totally off base, and has nothing at all to do with this shift we are seeing on certain streams. I think the number of people who do that is negligible.

The effects of angling mortality overall are much more harmful to brook trout populations than brown trout populations, because brookies are far more easily caught than browns. And many people target brook trout for the frying pan.

 

[rrt]

A recent article in "The Drake" written by Noah Davis of near Tyrone shows the concern about browns in a book trout stream. In the article, he and his father decided to kill the brown trout they caught in the brook trout stream that day. Kind of an interesting piece from a 23- or 24-year old kid.

 

[salmonoid]

People have been killing browns since they were introduced. Has it made a dent in their population in PA? I doubt it.

Sal - the variation in pH in Kettle Creek that I was referring to (or any other creek for that matter) is the daily variation that occurs. In Kettle, photosynthesis is what causes that daily fluctuation (lately) from 7.0 to 7.5. The presence of other compounds (i.e. some form of carbonate) is what allows a stream to buffer an influx of acid, say from a rain event, or some other point source. A rain event could certainly exhaust that buffer. I'd certainly like to know what conditions the person measuring the pH that took a 5 reading was measuring in.

Overall, the Kettle Creek drainage is a huge stream ecosystem that could bear a lot of fruit if it was more intensely studied. It's the only drainage in the state that I'm aware of where everything in the headwaters is EV. You have human influence in the form of mining and logging that are variables that have and continue to impact the streams, you have stocking, and lots of other things to look at. Drought a few years ago affected things, floods have affected things, and more recently, oil and gas extraction have affected things. It's a great big natural laboratory filled with all kinds of experiments waiting to happen.

 

[LetortAngler]

Over the last couple seasons, I would say the fishing is declining, especially the CV limestoners (Breeches not included).
The Letort (and Falling Springs) is still rebounding from a rather significant weed-kill.
My observations were later confirmed this spring after contacting the PFBC and acquiring the Letorts most recent shocking data revealing a big drop in biomass, especially in Section 4 from 483 kg/ha down to 171. And at Bonnybrook, a drop from 150kg down to only 69 kg/ha.

Hopefully with all this rain we will see some improvement.

Sal, I have an older Class A PDF file from 2015 or 2016 that lists the T/Alk I could email you if you like. Just send a pm if your interested.

 

[TrtnBux]

What's everyone's thought on Spring Creek?

It seems like it holds less and less water each year.

 

[PennKev]

TrtnBux wrote:
What's everyone's thought on Spring Creek?

It seems like it holds less and less water each year.

According to the USGS site, there has been flow data collected for spring creek since 1940 and 1984 at two separate locations. It would seem that it should be pretty easy to determine if decreasing flows are a trend.

 

[Oregon_OwlII]

afishinado wrote:
From another thread, I found the question interesting to discuss which wild trout streams have improved as well as which have declined in PA.

Interesting to see others list the wild trout streams on the uptick and down, in your opinion. It would great to comment as to add why, if you have a theory.


To start us off from another thread:

Troutbert wrote:
It seems to me that brown trout populations are decreasing in some places, such as upper Kettle Creek, Cross Fork Creek, Hammersley Fork, and the upper part of Slate Run, and its trib Francis Branch.

Mike wrote:
....a number of stocked BT streams have eventually seen their wild BT populations expand to Class A equivalent biomasses and then be removed from the stocking program as a result. Within my region we're in the process of doing that with Leibs Ck, York Co and not too long ago did the same with Blymire Hollow Run, York Co. Over the years that also happened in a part of Codorus Ck, a part of Conowingo Ck, W Br Perkiomen Ck (although it became posted at the same time), and it was on the way to happening on Valley Ck before it was removed from the stocking program due to PCBs in fish flesh.

I'll add these >

Improving:

Little Schuylkill > amd remediation / cleaner water

Manatawny > catching more and more wild trout than ever...why?

Yellow Breeches > catching more and more wild trout than
ever...why?

Declining:

Little Lehigh > development / water withdrawals?

Saucon > development? good habitat diminished > flood?

The Manatawny was starting to get many fencing projects completed along the upper end by Rt 73 about 5 to 7 years ago. The streamside vegetation is probably thick enough that it is now cooling the stream better. Good bug life in that stream too.