Which wild trout streams improving or declining in PA?

[afishinado]

From another thread, I found the question interesting to discuss which wild trout streams have improved as well as which have declined in PA.

Interesting to see others list the wild trout streams on the uptick and down, in your opinion. It would great to comment as to add why, if you have a theory.


To start us off from another thread:

Troutbert wrote:
It seems to me that brown trout populations are decreasing in some places, such as upper Kettle Creek, Cross Fork Creek, Hammersley Fork, and the upper part of Slate Run, and its trib Francis Branch.

Mike wrote:
....a number of stocked BT streams have eventually seen their wild BT populations expand to Class A equivalent biomasses and then be removed from the stocking program as a result. Within my region we're in the process of doing that with Leibs Ck, York Co and not too long ago did the same with Blymire Hollow Run, York Co. Over the years that also happened in a part of Codorus Ck, a part of Conowingo Ck, W Br Perkiomen Ck (although it became posted at the same time), and it was on the way to happening on Valley Ck before it was removed from the stocking program due to PCBs in fish flesh.

I'll add these >

Improving:

Little Schuylkill > amd remediation / cleaner water

Manatawny > catching more and more wild trout than ever...why?

Yellow Breeches > catching more and more wild trout than
ever...why?

Declining:

Little Lehigh > development / water withdrawals?

Saucon > development? good habitat diminished > flood?

 

[troutbert]

afishinado wrote:
From another thread, I found the question interesting to discuss which wild trout streams have improved as well as which have declined in PA.

Interesting to see others list the wild trout streams on the uptick and down, in your opinion. It would be interesting to add why, if you have a theory.


To start us off from another thread:

Troutbert wrote:
It seems to me that brown trout populations are decreasing in some places, such as upper Kettle Creek, Cross Fork Creek, Hammersley Fork, and the upper part of Slate Run, and its trib Francis Branch.

Mike wrote:
....a number of stocked BT streams have eventually seen their wild BT populations expand to Class A equivalent biomasses and then be removed from the stocking program as a result. Within my region we're in the process of doing that with Leibs Ck, York Co and not too long ago did the same with Blymire Hollow Run, York Co. Over the years that also happened in a part of Codorus Ck, a part of Conowingo Ck, W Br Perkiomen Ck (although it became posted at the same time), and it was on the way to happening on Valley Ck before it was removed from the stocking program due to PCBs in fish flesh.

I'll add these >

Improving:

Little Schuylkill > amd remediation / cleaner water

Manatawny > catching more and more wild trout than ever...why?

Yellow Breeches > catching more and more wild trout than
ever...why?

Declining:

Little Lehigh > development / water withdrawals?

Saucon > development? good habitat diminished > flood?

I don't think the streams I mentioned (Kettle, Cross Fork, Hammersley, upper Slate Run) have decreasing trout populations.

Just that on these streams there seems to be a shift in the ratio, towards more brook trout and fewer brown trout.

 

[afishinado]

troutbert wrote:
I don't think the streams I mentioned (Kettle, Cross Fork, Hammersley, upper Slate Run) have decreasing trout populations.

Just that on these streams there seems to be a shift in the ratio, towards more brook trout and fewer brown trout.

^That's interesting.

Do you have any idea if that's actually the case and why it would be happening?

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

lowerPH would be my guess

 

[Acristickid]

Totally anecdotal - Laurel Highlands streams as a whole getting better.

Wild fish are common and wild spread. Fayette, Westmoreland, Somerset, Cambria Counties seem to be doing well aside from localized flooding. There is still plenty of AMD but it’s slowly getting better.

 

[Dave_W]

If one defines "improving" as an increase in fish in a stream and compare this to the situation a generation ago....

No doubt, wild trout fishing has improved across the state IMO.

Again, this is not consistent and I agree that some well known streams have declined. In some cases, sections of streams are better and others have declined. Individual angling experience and population surveys support this conclusion.

When one looks at a particular stream, lets say over the last five years rather than a generation, the results are a lot more choppy due to localized and natural fluctuations in fish populations.

In my neck of the woods, speaking about streams I'm familiar with over a generation, I'd say very broadly that the CV streams have all improved (some dramatically) with the exception of Falling Springs and a couple less well known limestoners. This is in spite of what I believe are decling flow rates.
Wild trout streams on South Mountain are more of a wash. I don't have PFBC data for most of these. These creeks are mostly STs and, based on my angling experience, are broadly better. Some of them that were barren in the 1980s have decent fishing now and some that were great back then seem to have very few fish nowadays.

 

[vcregular]

Lehigh River - - no questions asked.

 

[Swattie87]

In general, improving, on multiple fronts.

Individual small streams can have massive fluctuations year to year in their populations based on individual conditions over the year within that stream. I think a more accurate and useful assessment is that there's MORE small streams holding wild Trout. The PFBC continues to turn up wild Trout in places that as of previous surveys held none. Improving water quality, and reduced thermal pollution are what's driving this I think. AMD and acid rain is being successfully mitigated in many areas, and at one time, most streams in PA had small impoundments in their headwaters. You see remnants of these all over the woods in PA. As they fail, they fortunately aren't being rebuilt, leading to cooler water extending further downstream in many watersheds.

The big streams/rivers with wild Trout continue to have their Class A sections expanded and moved further downstream in recent years...Little J, Kish, Penns, BFC, etc.

 

[Dave_W]

Swattie87 wrote:
at one time, most streams in PA had small impoundments in their headwaters. You see remnants of these all over the woods in PA. As they fail, they fortunately aren't being rebuilt, leading to cooler water extending further downstream in many watersheds.

I hadn't thought of this, but it's a good point.

 

[sarce]

The one area I notice declining trout populations is (not surprisingly) far SE PA in the ever-expanding Philly suburbs. I am most familiar with Chester County so I'll focus on that. Valley, though still a gem, has had its issues lately as many here are aware. I also believe there are fewer large fish than in the past. Little Valley is a sad shadow of its former self getting destroyed by uncontrolled stormwater. Eventually those effects will be the undoing of lower Valley.

Indian Run is not a stream I typically would mention publicly but it is declining, again due to widening of the channel from stormwater runoff.

There are several brook trout streams in the Brandywine basin that get wider, shallower, and warmer every year, as more land is cleared for housing developments. One in particular went from a thriving population surveyed in 2012 by PFBC to having almost no trout last time I checked, which was last year (I only found 2 individual trout, both in the same pool). Others are on the same path, though a handful are stable.

The PFBC has added many streams to the natural reproduction list in this area the past few years, but most were previously unsurveyed, so it does not necessarily mean the trout populations are new.

I would agree, that in most of PA, where the human population is stable or even decreasing, wild trout populations have generally improved and expanded. Areas experiencing growth and new urban development are seeing declines in trout populations.

 

[Dave_W]

sarce wrote:
Areas experiencing growth and new urban development are seeing declines in trout populations.

I think this is a sound observation broadly speaking.

The CV, however, may be the exception that proves the rule. Human populations have increased dramatically in Cumberland County in recent years and the fish are doing well.

 

[albud1962]

I don't think the streams I mentioned (Kettle, Cross Fork, Hammersley, upper Slate Run) have decreasing trout populations.

Just that on these streams there seems to be a shift in the ratio, towards more brook trout and fewer brown trout.

The brook trout are mounting an offensive on the evil invaders!!
#BrookTroutResistanceMovement

 

[albud1962]

Dave_W wrote:


I think this is a sound observation broadly speaking.

The CV, however, may be the exception that proves the rule. Populations have increased dramatically in Cumberland County in recent years and the fish are doing well.

I think a lot has to do with reduced stocking and better treatment of effluent at the Huntsdale Hatchery. In addition while residential development does increase impervious areas, other areas seeing heavy agricultural use are now grassed and stabilized thus leading to reduced sediment loadings.

 

[Fly-Swatter]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the Lackawanna River.

Thanks to continual, dedicated stewardship by the likes of Bernie McGurl, Charlie Charlesworth, the members of Lackawanna Valley TU, A&G Outfitters, and many others, The Lack has gone from flowing toxic sludge to a bona fide Class A wild brown trout stream with some very large fish, despite flowing through a densely populated corridor.

It must be the most extreme turnaround trout stream over the last 50 years.

 

[Nymph-wristed]

I would concur with afish about Manatawny up for sure and Saucon down, especially in the trophy section.

It is sad that Little Valley got hit with the fish kill because, Valley has been really good and the yoy, maybe of the last two seasons, were thick in Little and in Chesterbrook. What could have been, I wonder?

The Lack is great, as Fly-Swatter said above. and to add to that, I have had more experience recently with many year classes in one outing there, which has to be good, right?

I don't know if I finally cracked Bushkill in Northampton county or it is improving too. I think the surveys have supported this upward trend, but it has felt like it for the last two years at least. This is a fragile place though, I know.

 

[troutbert]

afishinado wrote:

troutbert wrote:
I don't think the streams I mentioned (Kettle, Cross Fork, Hammersley, upper Slate Run) have decreasing trout populations.

Just that on these streams there seems to be a shift in the ratio, towards more brook trout and fewer brown trout.

^That's interesting.

Do you have any idea if that's actually the case and why it would be happening?

I think that is happening on SOME freestone streams, based on my own fishing, talking to other anglers, from info from a fisheries biologist in NW PA, and from one in NCPA.

It would be interesting to see the electrofishing surveys from some of those streams to see what they show.

Regarding the cause, I don't know.

This shift does not seem to be happening on all freestone streams. There are other freestoners that still have lots of brown trout way upstream, where the streams are quite small.

 

[troutbert]

Someone mentioned pH of the streams.

A guy told me that he checked the pH on upper Kettle and found very low readings. I'm not confident that he is getting accurate readings.

If anyone knows of accurate info on pH and alkalinity on upper Kettle (Rt. 44 bridge to headwaters), please let us know.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

I did.
The PH of many forested freestoners is very low. His readings are likely accurate.
What is he getting?

 

[troutbert]

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
I did.
The PH of many forested freestoners is very low. His readings are likely accurate.
What is he getting?

What did you get on upper Kettle? And how are you measuring?

He said he got pHs in the mid 5's not far above the Rt. 44 bridge. He said he's using some kind of paper strips.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

I never said I measured kettle, just the generally that freestoners are low.

Here is a study done on a kettle creek trib. Might help.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.kettlecreek.org/uploads/2/5/6/0/25607137/water_quality_monitoring_report.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiAn9HhjYfdAhWFwVkKHd53BysQFjAJegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw3N2x54AnucxgIs99mVvsg_

His readings could be accurate looking at this, but I think they are a hair on the low side.