What a day!

[mute]

As I commented last June…
“The stream that troutmeister most likely fished that’s a trib to the Ltl Schuylkill does in fact consistently produce the wild trout trifecta. It has even produced a large year class of golden rainbows in the past, but like the vast majority of streams that have a bit of RT reproduction at times, few if any fish make it to legal size. There is a second trib to the Ltl Sch R that could produce the trifecta in the past, but it was never surveyed enough to learn of any consistency.”

As others have said, the pictured fish is a wild tiger trout and the individual tribs within this basin support trout populations dominated by one species or the other, providing ample opportunity for stray gametes or direct cross breeding from sneaky (opportunistic), precocial, small trout that behaviorally would not normally get a chance to spawn. In Fisheries Behavioral Ecology they are referred to as cuckholders.

As an aside, cuckholdry occurs frequently among Bluegills as well, and they are the better known species for this behavior. Within Bluegill populations it is an undesirable trait in that it can contribute to stunting if genes related to early maturity are passed along within the population. Early maturity=slow growth and small size because energy that would normally go into production of somatic cells (muscle, bone, etc) goes into sex cell production instead. This is also the problem with overharvest of Bluegills, meaning cropping the population length distribution down to sizes less than about 7- 7.75 inches. With an abundance of large males over that size, small males in large part will not mature at an earlier life stage, keeping growth rates high(er) and the length distribution desirable for anglers.

Hey Mike, what did you mean when you said "has even produced a large year class of golden rainbows in the past"?

Was that a typo? Did you mean just rainbows?

 

[goose54cdd]

WV stocks the north branch with tiger trout. Freakish looking if you ask me.

View attachment 1641224652

I caught a few on the Savage.

 

[bigjohn358]

I'm probably up to double digits in wild tiger trout. I'm fishing a limestone stream with both wild browns and native brooks in it. I seem to go in spurts with them. One year I was catching them quite often and most the same size. I'm just guessing it was a weird fluky spawn. In all honesty I was getting slightly worried since the area relies completely on natural reproduction and tiger trout are sterile. The wild tigers always have more of a marble spread out pattern look to them instead of the tight vermiculation pattern most stocked tigers have.

 

[wildtrout2]

I'm probably up to double digits in wild tiger trout.

I've seen exactly two wild tiger trout in 40 years. One, a buddy caught back in the 70's, and the other I caught a number of years ago. Double digit wild tigers is a tough sell.

 

[bigjohn358]

I've seen exactly two wild tiger trout in 40 years. One, a buddy caught back in the 70's, and the other I caught a number of years ago. Double digit wild tigers is a tough sell.

Well you see the photo of the one I posted...you tell me what you think...

 

[wildtrout2]

I think that is a wild tiger trout. But, I also think catching 10 or more of them is a stretch. jmo

 

[Acristickid]

Is a great day. The holy grail of PA trout fishing.

 

[Mike]

Despite the number of wild tiger trout shown in this forum over the years, I want to reiterate how unusual they are. To give you some sense of this, as I have mentioned before, in 42 field seasons during which I spent a lot of time on wild trout streams, I collected four tiger trout. The first was from Muncy Ck, Sullivan Co, in 1979 toward the end of a over a three field season stint of having done almost exclusively wild and stocked/wild trout stream surveys. A second came from a Northkill Ck, Berks Co survey in the early to mid-1980’s. A third, a yearling, came from a trap net set during a early spring crappie or walleye survey in Blue Marsh Lake, Berks Co. If that fish originated from Northkill Ck (most likely), it swam the “gauntlet” through about 4 mi of lower Northkill Ck, a stocked trout stretch, and about 5 miles of Blue Marsh Lake predators to get to that net, and then was not consumed by the predators surrounding it (catfish, walleye, etc) in the net. And some here worry about wild brook trout from headwaters areas being isolated because they supposedly can’t swim downstream to bigger waters in late fall or upstream from those bigger waters in spring through a wild brown population or a stocked trout section??? As if brook trout themselves aren’t cannibalistic in their home segments of streams. Finally, the fourth was collected in Green Branch, York Co, in about 2015.

During the period from 1976 to 2018 the statewide database showed that I had electrofished (waded) the equivalent distance of across Pa and back again. Actually, it was more than that (possibly a third trip) because 2nd and 3rd recapture runs were not counted in that tally. Only the first pass up a sampling site was counted.

So, be proud of your wild tiger trout catches.

 

[silverfox]

And some here worry about wild brook trout from headwaters areas being isolated because they supposedly can’t swim downstream to bigger waters in late fall or upstream from those bigger waters in spring through a wild brown population or a stocked trout section??? As if brook trout themselves aren’t cannibalistic?

Are you suggesting your single experience with a miraculous survivor renders countless other scientific papers inaccurate? You know better than that Mike.

 

[Mike]

Are you suggesting your single experience with a miraculous survivor renders countless other scientific papers inaccurate? You know better than that Mike.

Hardly, but plenty of wild trout of all sizes are found in many stocked trout waters throughout the state and seasonally mixed in with warmwater species in transitional streams as well as being found seasonally in major warmwater rivers. Cumulatively speaking, they are certainly in great enough numbers to indicate that predation would most likely not be limiting the spreading of genetic information. As an example, in a study cited in another thread it only took ten brook trout (5 male, 5 female) transferred to four streams to introduce new genetic info into each population.

Furthermore, as I recall, the Loyalsock Basin study indicated that movement was not limited to certain age groups, but that certain fish are movers and others are home-bodies. As such, even if it were only the adults successfully running the gauntlet there aren’t many predators that could consume them and if the concern is about stocked trout predation on wild trout migration, in very many cases there would only be low densities by the time the ST movement occurred. And let’s remember, predators are opportunistic and are most likely to feed on whatever is most abundant if their gapes can accommodate the prey. In most cases what’s most abundant as prey are not wild ST. Having surveyed the Loyalsock in Forksville, I can attest that while very infertile and also warm in the summer, we still found very limited numbers of all species, not just young brook trout, in the fall.

Finally, the overwhelming number young produced in strong year classes allows fish species to spread far and wide. Perhaps by luck and perhaps by design/adaptation, some make it as frontier fish to unoccupied, suitable habitats in non-natal streams formerly not hospitable to trout and others make it to non-natal streams that already support wild trout populations. Many most probably perish in this game of numbers, which is likely what happened to that Blue Marsh yearling tiger trout (and, just another example, the yearling wild brown trout that I saw pass up and out of the tidal Schuylkill via the Fairmount Dam fishway in Philadelphia). But we found many wild trout, sometimes large numbers, where they “should not be” in electrofishing surveys, particularly in warmwater streams that had not warmed enough yet that spring to kill them or where the trout were barely surviving the summer months only because it was a wetter/cooler than usual summer.

 

[silverfox]

Hardly, but plenty of wild trout of all sizes are found in many stocked trout waters throughout the state and seasonally mixed in with warmwater species in transitional streams as well as being found seasonally in major warmwater rivers. Cumulatively speaking, they are certainly in great enough numbers to indicate that predation would most likely not be limiting the spreading of genetic information. As an example, in a study cited in another thread it only took ten brook trout (5 male, 5 female) transferred to four streams to introduce new genetic info into each population.

Furthermore, as I recall, the Loyalsock Basin study indicated that movement was not limited to certain age groups, but that certain fish are movers and others are home-bodies. As such, even if it were only the adults successfully running the gauntlet there aren’t many predators that could consume them and if the concern is about stocked trout predation on wild trout migration, in very many cases there would only be low densities by the time the ST movement occurred. And let’s remember, predators are opportunistic and are most likely to feed on whatever is most abundant if their gapes can accommodate the prey. In most cases what’s most abundant as prey are not wild ST. Having surveyed the Loyalsock in Forksville, I can attest that while very infertile and also warm in the summer, we still found very limited numbers of all species, not just young brook trout, in the fall.

Finally, the overwhelming number young produced in strong year classes allows fish species to spread far and wide. Perhaps by luck and perhaps by design/adaptation, some make it to unoccupied, suitable habitats in non-natal streams formerly not hospitable to trout and others make it to non-natal streams that already support wild trout populations. Many most probably perish in this game of numbers, which is likely what happened to that Blue Marsh yearlimg tiger trout (and, just another example, the yearling wild brown trout that I saw pass up and out of the tidal Schuylkill via the Fairmount Dam fishway in Philadelphia).

There are exceptions to every rule. Like wild tiger trout surviving a gauntlet that nobody would guess they would.

My interpretation (possibly incorrectly) was that "interaction" drives changes in behavior. Predation might play a role, but I'm not sure predation is the biggest issue. At least between salmonids. Competition dynamics, which I think are pretty well established, likely play a bigger role in spatial-temporal interaction between species.

More relevant to this topic, I've also recently read a paper that indicates ST & BT put their differences aside when it comes to reproduction. More specifically, they don't seem to be aware that their mate isn't the same species. Again, there are exceptions to everything. Their interactions may be based on a whole host of environmental/biotic factors and might be drastically different from one place and time to another. I've never really looked too deeply into tiger trout (because I don't like them/see them as a failure), but I've always assumed their presence, or lack thereof, is due to poor survival from the egg/fry stage more than how often ST/BT actually mate. i.e., there may be more breeding going on, but between egg development and parr or juvenile, they just aren't well suited for survival? Curious if you've looked into that?

Similarly, to your last point, I've also read plenty of papers that detail how ST have overtaken BT populations where one species' year class success far outnumbered the other or environmental factors favor ST over BT generally. Especially where the ST is the invader and BT are native, though also here in the states as well. Then, conversely, plenty of papers show the opposite. There are a whole host of factors that affect outcomes.

 

[salmonoid]

I think that is a wild tiger trout. But, I also think catching 10 or more of them is a stretch. jmo

Why? I've caught six tigers in my life. Five of them are likely wild. The one that I'd infer was not was caught in a FFO stretch but in a stream that has wild browns and a tiny handful of wild brookies. So I'm at least halfway to double digits..

 

[wildtrout2]

Why?

Because statistics/odds would indicate otherwise. As I said, jmo.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

If any of big john's tigers came from lower fishing creek, or tributaries near mill hall I would be cautious in thinking they are wild due to the rampant hatchery "escapees" from the local, private trout hatchery. There was a batch of large brook trout in the 14-15 in range roaming that area last year for example.

 

[sarce]

I know of 6 tiger trout that turned up in surveys in MD in one county alone in the past 5 years or so. Repeat sampling of mixed brook and brown streams appears to be a good way to capture the random years when a few tigers are produced.

 

[Mike]

There are exceptions to every rule. Like wild tiger trout surviving a gauntlet that nobody would guess they would.

My interpretation (possibly incorrectly) was that "interaction" drives changes in behavior. Predation might play a role, but I'm not sure predation is the biggest issue. At least between salmonids. Competition dynamics, which I think are pretty well established, likely play a bigger role in spatial-temporal interaction between species.

More relevant to this topic, I've also recently read a paper that indicates ST & BT put their differences aside when it comes to reproduction. More specifically, they don't seem to be aware that their mate isn't the same species. Again, there are exceptions to everything. Their interactions may be based on a whole host of environmental/biotic factors and might be drastically different from one place and time to another. I've never really looked too deeply into tiger trout (because I don't like them/see them as a failure), but I've always assumed their presence, or lack thereof, is due to poor survival from the egg/fry stage more than how often ST/BT actually mate. i.e., there may be more breeding going on, but between egg development and parr or juvenile, they just aren't well suited for survival? Curious if you've looked into that?

Similarly, to your last point, I've also read plenty of papers that detail how ST have overtaken BT populations where one species' year class success far outnumbered the other or environmental factors favor ST over BT generally. Especially where the ST is the invader and BT are native, though also here in the states as well. Then, conversely, plenty of papers show the opposite. There are a whole host of factors that affect outcomes.

I’ve never seen a scientific paper that discussed tiger trout specifically, but I suspect that either the behavioral or biological mechanisms that allow for some form of cross breeding are rare or generally ineffective in the wild or survival is poor at one or more life stages. Just one example of conflicting behavior would be the timing of spawning, as ST generally spawn earlier than BT in Pa.

 

[bigjohn358]

If any of big john's tigers came from lower fishing creek, or tributaries near mill hall I would be cautious in thinking they are wild due to the rampant hatchery "escapees" from the local, private trout hatchery. There was a batch of large brook trout in the 14-15 in range roaming that area last year for example.

Further away...

 

[The_Sasquatch]

WV also stocks them in the southern streams as well, including several of the tributaries to the New River. I've caught several of them.

However, I have caught exactly ONE wild tiger trout in over 20 years of fly fishing.

 

[redietz]

WV also stocks them in the southern streams as well, including several of the tributaries to the New River. I've caught several of them.

However, I have caught exactly ONE wild tiger trout in over 20 years of fly fishing.

Same here, but closer to 60 years.

 

[oswald09]

Congratulations! I have caught one wild tiger in Schuylkill county most likely in the same stream you were fishing and Mike was referencing.