Trout beads

[PatrickC]

captbugger wrote:
I totally agree Patrickc I know for a fact that if fish want something they will take it. I have been fly fishing all my life and I can say 20 years of being on the stream I have seen it all. By the way had my best day using peach bead on the sandy river which is located on the other side of Rochester New York

I love that creek!

 

[pcray1231]

why wouldn't you want the hook in the egg?

I dunno about you, but I tend to have somewhat low strike/hook ratios with egg patterns. Maybe I'm just a bad tier, but the fuzz tends to narrow the gap a bit. As a result, I miss a lot of fish, and lose a lot too. But egg patterns are effective enough to make it worthwhile.

I also have fairly high deep hooking rates, as they do tend to inhale them (on steelies or stocked bows, which is about the only time I use egg patterns).

Personally, I'd be hesitant to use trout beads in PA, due to the legality, not the morality. The difference between snagging and fishing, in my mind, is all about whether the fish is intending to eat the offering. If so, I think it should be fair game. But that doesn't mean I'd break a law just cause I disagree with the law.

 

[nathanazajac]

I have used beads for years almost exclusively and almost always have a good hookup in the inside corner of the mouth. Also I have never had a fish hooked deep using the beads. I always fish them in a dead drift no flossing just like any other drift setup.

 

[captbugger]

Honestly look to the pbfc for what is breaking the law not our personal opinions

 

[Cold]

Keep in mind, you're not "attracting" the fish to your hook, then snagging them.

Yeah...except...that's exactly what you're doing. The fish is attracted, by the bead, to the general vicinity of your hook, at which point, the hook is set from a location outside the fish's mouth...to embed in...whatever part of the fish may happen to stop it.

The fish actually eats the bead(like any other fly/lure/bait), your indicator goes down, then you set the hook. Honestly I think a lot of the times both the bead and the hook go into the fish's mouth when they eat t.

None of which addresses the main issue of setting a hook into a fish when that fish didn't take said hook.

Every time this topic comes up, those that bead go to the same arguments to rationalize what they're doing, which is hooking fish with a hook that the fish isn't eating. Every argument supporting the act is simply distraction from that main fact that none of the beaders who defend it directly address in a meaningful way.

I think more highly of the beaders with the attitude of, "I don't care if it's snagging or not; it catches fish." than the ones that try to justify it.

 

[geebee]

pcray1231 wrote:
I dunno about you, but I tend to have somewhat low strike/hook ratios with egg patterns. Maybe I'm just a bad tier, but the fuzz tends to narrow the gap a bit. As a result, I miss a lot of fish, and lose a lot too. But egg patterns are effective enough to make it worthwhile.

.

i use a wide gaped hook two sizes above what i need (say 14) and tye it sized for the lower size (say 18).

as to beads, i've seen them used and they are very effective.

people take the plain beads and make them look better with nail polish. some guys carry literally thousands of them.

i did not see any foul hooked in the jaw or head. all were hooked in the corner or top of the mouth.

out west, drift boat guides use them a lot for steelies - its an (almost) guaranteed way to get novice clients into fish. they just roll cast them ahead of the boat and drift with it.

i don't see any difference between them and a foam beetle or hopper or gummy minnow etc.

 

[captbugger]

Totally missing what this topic is about had nothing to do with snagging it has everything to do with fishing and catching fish that was my purpose. So if you are wanting to argue bugger off and take your wining else where. So anyone else tried using beads for trout if so what colors and what mm size bead did you use

 

[Cold]

out west, drift boat guides use them a lot for steelies - its an (almost) guaranteed way to get novice clients into fish. they just roll cast them ahead of the boat and drift with it.

That's a bit like saying "McDonalds uses pink slime for their burgers and sell millions of them every day."

i don't see any difference between them and a foam beetle or hopper or gummy minnow etc.

Really?! No difference at all?

 

[geebee]

nope - what is the difference between using foam and plastic ? or wood or cork, ?

guys fling poppers and sliders for bass, panfish and linesiders, bluefish etc all the time. is that not fly fishing either then ?

capt - orange or red and painted with pearlescent nail polish, seem to be very popular.

 

[PennKev]

Cold wrote:

Keep in mind, you're not "attracting" the fish to your hook, then snagging them.

Yeah...except...that's exactly what you're doing. The fish is attracted, by the bead, to the general vicinity of your hook, at which point, the hook is set from a location outside the fish's mouth...to embed in...whatever part of the fish may happen to stop it.

It is not clear if you actually are familiar with how the beads are rigged. The hook is not a foot away from the bead or anything like that. The hook is only a few inches below the bead. When the fish inhales the bead the hook becomes positioned near the outer jaw. Virtually every hook-up on beads is in the outer jaw or the corner of the mouth. Even with smaller fish, bad hook-ups are a non-factor. My experience is limited to a few days of fishing with beads, but after a few fish it became obvious that hooking the fish anywhere dangerous is very unusual.

None of which addresses the main issue of setting a hook into a fish when that fish didn't take said hook.

So you would rather risk hooking a fish deeply in the throat/gills/etc. because that is a fair hookup, but fishing a rig which promotes jaw hooked fish is bad?

You are still fooling the fish into biting a lure in order to hook it. As I said before, Hookups are no worse than if you are using a large streamer. Trout often hit long shanked streamers near the head and the point does not enter their mouth. The fish ends up getting hooked outside of the mouth. In fact, potentially harmful hook-ups are far more likely with large streamers, IMO.

Every time this topic comes up, those that bead go to the same arguments to rationalize what they're doing, which is hooking fish with a hook that the fish isn't eating. Every argument supporting the act is simply distraction from that main fact that none of the beaders who defend it directly address in a meaningful way.

Everything that has been said in support of beads is true. They all but eliminate deep hookings, and they do not "foul hook" fish. Anyone who has given them a try and done so with an open mind would soon agree. Of that I'm certain. After actually using them I see no way that they make actual snagging easier. The fish is no more likely to be foul hooked on beads than any other normally rigged fly pattern.

I think more highly of the beaders with the attitude of, "I don't care if it's snagging or not; it catches fish." than the ones that try to justify it.

I don't think anyone with real experience using bead thinks that because snaggings/foul hookings just don't happen the way you think they do.

The resistance to beads comes from those who have not tried them and/or do not actually understand how the rig works.

 

[salmonoid]

From a 2009 Post-Gazette article:

"It's a legal device elsewhere, but illegal here," said Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission assistant northwest regional law enforcement supervisor Tom Tarkowski. "Trout beads hook fish on the outside of the mouth and, in Pennsylvania, any fish not hooked on the inside of the mouth has to be released."

The device works by attracting a fish to a salmon egg imitation on a line several inches above a hook. When the fish eats the bead and the angler jerks the line, the hook snares the fish on the outside of his jaw.

"Apparently, these devices are popular in other states, like Alaska, and we get a lot of questions from anglers wanting to use them on steelhead here," Tarkowski said. "The answer is, you can't."

So what exactly is illegal about them? I've hooked fish on the outside of the mouth with streamers and nymphs, etc. It's called foul hooking and anything you fish with can foul hook a fish (good thing this never happens with dropper flies!). So that alone can't make them illegal; you just have to immediately release the fish unharmed.

Ethical debate aside, what regulation is being cited to make trout beads illegal in PA? Lots of posts on forums like "I talked to a WCO and they said they are legal to use" but I have not seen a citation of PFBC regulations that says they are not ok to use.

The use of a snagging hook is prohibitied:

SNAGGING HOOKS may not be used or possessed while in the act of fishing. A snagging hook is a device designed or modified to facilitate the snagging of fish and may be a hook with a single barb, weighted on a shank below the eye and above the barbs; or a hook otherwise designed or modified to make the snagging of fish more likely than it would be with a normal hook.

But that's a horrible definition in my book. What is a "normal" hook? If I sharpen my hook, is it now a snagging hook, because it makes snagging more likely because it is sharper?

Edit: found a potential answer from PFBC Law Enforcement on huntingpa.com. But I disagree with law enforcement's assumption that this method is designed to hook fish outside the mouth. Just because it can happen doesn't mean it is designed to happen. So it all seems to hinge on whether this is snagging or not, since there is nothing that explicitly prohibits trout beads or the Moffit system.

 

[PennKev]

salmonoid wrote:
From a 2009 Post-Gazette article:

"...any fish not hooked on the inside of the mouth has to be released."

Rapalas...

BAN THEM!!!!

Lol.

So many spinning lures hook fish outside of the mouth it is not even funny. I would like to hear someone from the PAFBC try to tell all the spinning guys they need to put a fish back because their plug or spinner hooked the fish on the outside of the mouth. Again, the same thinking can be applied to streamers.

And to clarify, I have no problems with those who use spinners, plugs etc.

 

[Cold]

nope - what is the difference between using foam and plastic ? or wood or cork, ?

Are you also stumped when you send a letter to your penpal in Phoenix but write Seattle in the address and it doesn't arrive? The obvious difference is that for the other flies you mentioned, the hook is part of the fly and the fish takes the hook into its mouth in the process of eating the fly, where with the bead, this is not the case.

If the bead is 'pretty much the same thing', then why not make that hook at the end a shank-weighted treble and *really* up the ante?

It is not clear if you actually are familiar with how the beads are rigged.

I am. I have several friends that use the method.

The hook is not a foot away from the bead or anything like that. The hook is only a few inches below the bead. When the fish inhales the bead the hook becomes positioned near the outer jaw. Virtually every hook-up on beads is in the outer jaw or the corner of the mouth. Even with smaller fish, bad hook-ups are a non-factor. My experience is limited to a few days of fishing with beads, but after a few fish it became obvious that hooking the fish anywhere dangerous is very unusual.

More of the typical rationalization, distraction, misdirection, and avoidance.

There's just one simple question: is the fish taking the hook? Or is the fish taking something else and having the hook pulled into its head from the outside?

So you would rather risk hooking a fish deeply in the throat/gills/etc. because that is a fair hookup, but fishing a rig which promotes jaw hooked fish is bad?

Ahh, so now it's an argument of "it's okay to snag fish from the outside of their head because then they can't swallow the fly"?

I've never once had any trout throat-hooked on an egg pattern. If you're using proper technique, it should almost never happen, if at all, and to imply that standard fly fishing methods overwhelmingly result in deep hooks while snagging is more ethical is really telling as to how far snaggers will twist things to legitimize their methods.

You are still fooling the fish into biting a lure in order to hook it. As I said before, Hookups are no worse than if you are using a large streamer. Trout often hit long shanked streamers near the head and the point does not enter their mouth. The fish ends up getting hooked outside of the mouth.

More carefully worded misdirection to get away from the uncomfortable nugget of truth, and the question that beaders desperately seem to avoid wanting to answer: Is the fish taking the hook?

Once that doesn't matter, you've established that the general idea of hooking a fish form the outside is okay, and the rest is just a matter of subjective line-drawing. So it's okay to hook a fish from the outside? What happens when someone discovers that you get even better hookup rates with a heavier wire hook? Increase the distance from 2-3" to 6"? Reduce the bead size to 1/8"? Make the hook wide gape? A treble? Add a splitshot just above the hook? Eliminate the bead altogether and just use red mono as an attractant?

Everything that has been said in support of beads is true.

The distinction that the pro-bead crowd so desperately tries to gloss over, though, is that "true" and "relevant" are two different things. If I order a steak and get served a burger, the restaurant owner can insist all he wants that it's still beef...maybe even the same cut.... It may be true, but it doesn't make a lick of difference when it comes to the issue I'm having with the situation.

The resistance to beads comes from those who have not tried them and/or do not actually understand how the rig works.

False. I've seen it in action. It's a highly effective fish taking method. But then again, so is netting, dynamite, and dredging a big old nightcrawler.

 

[geebee]

as Kev says they are normally rigged 1-2" from the hook. same as the moffitt flies.

snaggers put them 6" or more away.

it is no different really than an articulated tube fly or metal lures like the Flying C, devon minnow etc. where the fish hits the metal or wood and then gets hooked.

i have caught many many Atlantic on Flying C's and all were hooked OUTSIDE the mouth - is that wrong ?

snaggers are not trying to get the fish to take the bead, they are trying to get the line in the fishes mouth - which is why they strike on any bump, whereas bead fisherman let the fish take it then they strike.

imho thats a massive difference.

 

[streamerguy]

Cold, you simply don't get it.

Ahh, so now it's an argument of "it's okay to snag fish from the outside of their head because then they can't swallow the fly"?

I've never once had any trout throat-hooked on an egg pattern. If you're using proper technique, it should almost never happen, if at all, and to imply that standard fly fishing methods overwhelmingly result in deep hooks while snagging is more ethical is really telling as to how far snaggers will twist things to legitimize their methods.

Again, in some regions(Alaska, for example) where fish aggressively feed on eggs they have been known to swallow egg patterns deep. This doesn't happen as often in PA, or OH, but that's how beads started. It has nothing to do with snaggers. As said by someone earlier, it's no easier to snag a fish with a bead as it is with a normal fly. If you've seen them used properly you would agree as well.

If you want to deliberately snag fish(or in your mind "increase hookups")......bead fishing isn't the way to go.

More carefully worded misdirection to get away from the uncomfortable nugget of truth, and the question that beaders desperately seem to avoid wanting to answer: Is the fish taking the hook?

Once that doesn't matter, you've established that the general idea of hooking a fish form the outside is okay, and the rest is just a matter of subjective line-drawing. So it's okay to hook a fish from the outside? What happens when someone discovers that you get even better hookup rates with a heavier wire hook? Increase the distance from 2-3" to 6"? Reduce the bead size to 1/8"? Make the hook wide gape? A treble? Add a splitshot just above the hook? Eliminate the bead altogether and just use red mono as an attractant?

Of course the fish isn't taking the hook. When fishing normal flies, the fish is taking the stuff tied onto the hook. With beads, think of that "stuff" being separated from the hook. Point being.......you're fooling the fish into eating something.

As said, the fish is usually hooked on the inside of the mouth, or barely on the outside. Again, The reason for this is because the fish is actually taking the bead.

Your comments about heavy wire hooks, trebles, etc. are irrelevant to bead fishing. In fact trebles and bigger hooks will probably decrease hookups since the fish will see them and not eat. The presentation may be affected from heavy hooks as well.

By increasing the distance, the fish will still take the bead but you'll hook them much farther outside of the mouth....which isn't good. Hookups won't increase....in fact they'll probably decrease since the fish has time to spit out the bead.

False. I've seen it in action. It's a highly effective fish taking method. But then again, so is netting, dynamite, and dredging a big old nightcrawler.

And why is it highly effective? Well, probably because a bead better imitates a single egg than a fuzzy glo bug. It has nothing to do with the rig itself.

fwiw, in my limited experiences with beads I haven't noticed a huge difference in hookups between beads and regular egg patterns. Both are effective.

 

[PatrickC]

Cold: DON'T USE BEADS! It's ok for you to sleep well tonight if others disagree with your point of view.

 

[Cold]

^^ More misdirection away from the facts of the matter, in order to make it somehow seem like the core mechanic of the fish catching is still fundamentally the same as a fish eating a hook instead of a fish eating something else and having a hook pulled, from outside the mouth, into the side of its head. ^^

I guess there's no convincing people of things they've spend so long willfully and desperately denying that now they can't even make a distinction.

Enjoy the beads.

PatrickC, I obviously don't. It just blows my mind the lengths people will go to in order to rationalize, distract from, and deny the realities of the things they do while insisting that its okay. I think the degree of protest each time this comes up is indicative of how those that do it, deep down, know it's kinda lousy.

But if that's what they need to do to catch a fish, more power to 'em I guess. I've never needed to catch a fish so bad that I'd reduce myself to such tactics.

 

[streamerguy]

I was quite disappointed that there wasn't a spot burning thread this winter, but beads, black stoneflies, and DHALO discussions are nice ways to change it up.

 

[PatrickC]

streamerguy wrote:
I was quite disappointed that there wasn't a spot burning thread this winter, but beads, black stoneflies, and DHALO discussions are nice ways to change it up.

You just SPOT BURNED stoneflies. Way to go. Now everyone will be using them and they won't work for me any more :-(

 

[geebee]

Cold wrote: I've never needed to catch a fish so bad that I'd reduce myself to such tactics.

obviously.

whereas some of us who would stand in 35 degree water for ten hours a day for six days just to catch ONE wild sea run Steelhead rather than a bunch of lake run hatchery steelies, probably would.

each unto their own huh ?