Saw Creek Kriss Pines Situation

Lonewolve wrote:
waste is filtered out of the water GeeBee, It never gets in the water..then the filtered waste is utilized after composting in small farm vegetable farms. The water that enters is almost pristine.

If its almost pristine why would it contravene pfbc rules ?

Is this an area where local TU's could Donate their time and money and expertise to add a further filter, I wonder ?

Good to hear that they have their own water too.

There must be a solution to this, it can't be the only hatchery on a wild trout stream in the nation ?
 
At this moment there is no filtration. I think Lonewolf is just trying to be a devils advocate. It is something thay could be looked at.

Some of the best trout waters in Pa have hatcheries on them. Spring, BFC.....L.L.
 
Becker - not trying to argue but if I was making that investment I would everything in writing. Tha article said that once the disposal activity stopped that the operation had to be brought up to the new standards. Good luck to the owners.
 
GeeBee,
All the water that is released should be filtered, what i was referring to was newer technologies of filtration that are being used in the aquaculture industry by fish farmers . Currently its is almost 100% clean when the water leaves as when it comes in.

A hatchery is nothing more than a glorified fish farm whether it raises Trout or any other breed of fish.

If you can go back to Big Spring ... yes thats what effluent does to a world class Brook Trout stream. When it was created it was such a great idea, in the end it was very detrimental to the creek. At the time it was built there was no where near the knowledge or technology available that we have today and is in current use at other facilities.

The filtered waste is utilized an recycled with no after effects to humans or other creatures to my knowledge. Maybe this place can do the same thing and raise their fish at the same time. I prefer wild fish..but face it unless you had bottomless pockets and could rewrite the existing water use/rights laws here in Pa, and get them changed with an emphasis on Riparian buffers and public access from the high water mark down to the streambed . Hatchery fish will remain a staple of Pa Fish Commission. Alot of money is made from licenses and trout stamps.
What is really sad is the DEP is really a sorry excuse of an agency where water is concerned... last time i checked Fracking does way worse things to the water ,water tables, and the enviroment..and they are worried about a trout hatchery?
 
Shane { Becker},
not devils advocate, just trying to let folks know that there are better ways to clean an filter the water before it leaves the hatcheries, and it is in use currently. Does it cost anything? Sure it does, but it also costs money to raise fish as well as to let em loose.
When i was younger i had a notion this was in the 90's of buying some land with a spring source of water an raising trout or buying a Trout Hatchery. I also toured a few aquaculture farms that were done properly. It can be done , it does cost money, and that is the balancing act.
Would i prefer Hatchery fish over Wild? Sure,but it really depends on what stream we are talking about. The Enviroment is no where what it was when William Penn bought this land. Can you imagine what the streams were like then, and the water temps?No siltation or eroision?
Hatcheries as well as co-op hatcheries like the one on the Lizard creek help raise an awful lot of trout for streams that wouldn't have them there without stocking for various reasons.
 
AndyP wrote:
Becker - not trying to argue but if I was making that investment I would everything in writing. Tha article said that once the disposal activity stopped that the operation had to be brought up to the new standards. Good luck to the owners.

Lol no worries, was not trying to argue either just stating that when they purchased it everything was good to go. I am sure you are correct and they should have dug a lot deeper before the purchase.
 
Another article I found


When everything right seems to go wrong

Saturday, November 17, 2012 Couple's dream of reopening heritage fish hatchery becoming nightmare By AL ZAGOFSKY TN Correspondent azagofsk@ptd.net

For a century, the Kriss Pines Fish Hatchery, once reputed to be the largest on the East coast, stocked the Sawmill Run, and sold fish commercially.

New owners Kirk and Denise Cressley, bought the property at 3585 Fairyland Road in Lehighton, that included a 2-1/2 story 16-room 19th century Victorian farm house that had served as a destination bed and breakfast, and 14 raceways for raising trout. Kirk, an Allentown firefighter who grew up on an adjacent farm, and Denise, who recently retired from the Coast Guard, loved the location and purchased the property to reopen the heritage fish hatchery a place where Kirk worked as a youth.

Kirk and Denise were cleaning and repairing the raceways, where the fish would grow from inch-sized fry to well over a foot in length in 12 to 18 months, when they were approached by an officer.

"He said he was wondering if we would be interested in leasing out the races for a co-op with the Lehigh River Stocking Association," Denise said. "We said 'yes' and he put us in contact with Matt MacConnell, the LRSA president."

The Cressleys owned the property and the LRSA had experience in raising trout, plus the LRSA needed to transfer their stocking program.

"We thought we would gain some experience and they would have the facilities and it would work out for the best for everyone in the local area if we could stock more trout," Denise said. "It was a win-win for everyone."

"The Lehigh River Stocking Association is a nonprofit organization that has been restoring trout fishing in the Lehigh River for the last 21 years," said McConnell. "It has become harder and harder to raise money to buy fish. The fish that we like to stock cost about $3 to $5 a piece. We stock about $20,000 worth of fish a year. That's about all the money we can raise."

"We have been anxious to find ways to get more fish for our dollar," he said. "Officer Christman helped us make connections with the new owners of that facility. Over the last six months, we have worked on an agreement with the owners, and we applied to the Fish and Boat Commission for a five-year cooperative trout nursery program where we would raise trout at the former Kriss Pine's Hatchery. The new owners are calling it the Firefly Trout Hatchery."

"Together, we think it's a good opportunity for them to learn from our co-op program, partnering with us for five years so they can learn the ropes," McConnell said. "We can benefit for five years raising trout at pennies on the dollar because all we have to do is pay for food. We get fingerlings at no charge from the Fish and Boat Commission."

"We were all excited and the Fish and Boat Commission was on board. They came up to the site and did water testing. The water was excellent quality off the Sawmill Run which flows into the Pohopoco Creek which flows into the Lehigh River."

Everyone seemed happy: the site would maintain its heritage, the Cressley family would get training to start a new business, a significant new business would be a boost to the economy, the LRSA would have mature fish to stock in the Lehigh River, local people and restaurants would be able to buy fresh trout, and the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission would make more fish available for anglers.

"Everything seemed very promising and then I get a phone call from Earl Myers with the cooperative program at the Fish and Boat Commission," McConnell said. "It seems that they found wild brown trout in the Sawmill Run in sufficient numbers that they are going to reclassify the creek as a Class A stream, which I understand then gets submitted to the Department of Environmental Protection as a proposed 'exceptional value' waterway. Once it is classified 'exceptional value', operations cannot be introduced that might impair the water quality."

"As part of our normal procedure to bring a prospective co-op into our program, one of the first things we do is a site visit and we take some initial water quality measurements and analysis," Earl Myers said. "We look at the situation, take pictures and look everything over."

"In the process, one of my technicians discovered some brown trout that were not only in the creek, but some looked like they were in the hatchery system. So, I immediately wanted to find out what the situation was as far as the receiving stream, even though it was classified at that time as a cold water migratory fishery stream."

"I wanted to see if there were any surveys that have been done to see if this could be considered for a class A trout stream because if that was the case, then it wouldn't be a good idea to start a whole procedure and find out that it's going to become Class A and then we deal with possible regulations on trying to put a new facility in on a class A wild trout stream. Usually, a class A wild trout stream becomes an 'exceptional value', high quality designation by DEP."

Next, the Commission Area Fisheries Manager came out to the site and determined that there is enough wild trout, in quantity and size in total, to classify it as a Class A wild trout stream.

"That's when I put the brakes on and started talking to my supervisors to find out where we want to go with this," Myers continued. "Right now it is in channels as far as being reclassified. I basically told Matt in our last conversation, to try to find another place to do this."

"A trout hatchery would impair the water quality at some level," said McConnell, who is an environmental engineer. "If you have a trout farm that is discharging into a creek, there will probably be some less than pristine water being discharged-some fish waste and some food that makes it through the settling zone."

From the beginning, McConnell planned to "do everything by the book. World-class, top-notch proper settling zones, proper maintenance, minimal stocking density. We wouldn't overpopulate the hatchery."

If the area of the Sawmill Run at the fish hatchery is rerated and will be required to meet a non-degradation standard, the technology would be so costly that it would be unlikely that the fish hatchery would be reopened.

The Cressleys were devastated. They couldn't believe that this heritage fish hatchery couldn't be reopened because wild brown trout were found in Sawmill Run.

"The hatchery was the very reason that we moved here," Denise said. "This is what we came here to do. Kirk loves the business aspect of it and I love the history aspect of it. I love bringing it back to something that was here before. You will not believe the number of people that stop by and ask about it. Everybody in this area came here as a kid and fished."

From the 1950s until the mid-1990s, the fish hatchery was operated by Joseph and Lillie Kriss as Kriss Pines, and served to stock trout for their pay-to-fish business. After Joseph Kriss passed away, the property was owned by John Fisher, then Bob and Pat Handwerk who operated it as the Arbor Glen bed-and-breakfast, then Danielle Keith who operated it as Whispering Waters bed-and-breakfast. Currently, Kirk and Denise Cressley plan to operate it as Firefly.

In 2004, Nolan Wernett of Sand Spring Trout Hatchery in Jim Thorpe leased the raceways from the Handwerks and operated it as a trout hatchery. When the property was sold to Keith, the lease rate for the raceways was increased to the point where Wernett was forced to cease operations at the site in 2009. The raceways have been idle for three years.

Because the raceways have been idle for three years, it is unlikely that if they reopened they would be allowed to operate as they had in the past. In other words, they are unlikely to be grandfathered into the site.

The Cressley's, McConnell and Wernett all believe that it makes no sense to reclassify portions of the Sawmill Run as "exceptional value".

Here are some reasons:

1. Runoff from both the Pennsylvania Turnpike and Fairyland Road discharges into Sawmill Run.

2. Dams are located upstream of the hatchery property and these dams heat up the water in the summer.

3. The fish that were found in the Sawmill Run were brown trout, a species not native to the United States. The only way that the brown trout could have gotten into Sawmill Run is from the trout nursery when the trout were used to stock the creek during the days when Kriss Pines had a pay-to-fish operation. So the Cressleys wonder how can they be penalized by fish breeding in the creek when the hatchery put the fish in the creek initially.

4. The fish hatchery was operated for a century and only closed for three years. It should have historic standing.

5. The Lehigh River Stocking Association plans to operate it using the best methods that are possible and reasonable but would not be able to meet the requirements of a pristine discharge.

The matter is currently being reviewed by the Pennsylvania Fish and boat commission and they plan to pass their review to DEP.

The Cressley's and the Lehigh River Stocking Association's dream of reopening the heritage fish hatchery is becoming nightmare, and they are hoping to get support to allow them to see their dream come true and open the hatchery, stock the Lehigh River, start a new business, and make fresh local trout available for consumers and restaurants in Carbon County.
 
I have to agree with the DEP, if the effluent is dirty, it doesn't get pumped into the stream. Haven't we learned anything since the tanneries and coal mines. To me, it doesn't matter what the classification of the stream is, we're supposed to be cleaning them up, not adding to the problem.
Allowing a waiver is another example of socializing the costs of doing business.
Enough.
That's what I think, I could be wrong.
 
Shane,
thanks for finding another great article.
 
Hey Shane, whatever happened to the power plant on the Po, just to change the subject?
 
LOL yes because we need another problem to worry about. My understanding is it is a go. All funding was approved, Guess they just have to do some studies before any construction begins. I actually brought this up with Doyle Heffely in a meeting and he just said it would not change the temps or flows. I find the flows part hard to swallow. Who knows, but have not heard anything recently.
 
1 &2 on that list should looked at for fixing rather than being reasons not to maintain a class a stream, and those brown trout may have just as likely come up from the poho or even lehigh to spawn.

I have every sympathy for the couple and I hope TU and other orgs can assist them in a solution that helps them reopen the hatchery, but not at the streams expense.

It sounds like they have a B&B business to run too though so its not a complete bust for them - and on a side note, who would order farmed trout or salmon to eat thesedays ?

Not me guys for sure.
 
It sounds like they have a B&B business to run too though so its not a complete bust for them - and on a side note, who would order farmed trout or salmon to eat thesedays ? Not me guys for sure

I don't think it's for the B&B, I believe it's for the LRSA to stock the Lehigh River.

Edit... Okay i re-read the article and understand your question. My apologies.
 
First things first, when the 2 dams were built the Lehigh and Pohopoco were both brook trout fisheries. ACE built the dams for flood control and at that time since there was no mandate to protect and restore, there was nothing in place to restore damaged fisheries.
Now there is, and before anything happens the Lehigh and Po Should be restored to brook trout fisheries. There should be NO stocking of invasive species at all. Furthermore if you wish to dispute this, refer to JJ Audubon's dairies.
That being said, Saw Mill Creek is and has been for a very long time a mixed trout fishery. You could argue that it was as a result of the hatchery being there, but I'd argue that it was probably as a result of early stocking by the Old Fish Commission in the late 1800's that brown trout became established.
There is NEVER any justification to stock ANY Class A trout fishery. The fact that there are still brook trout in the stream tells me that they've always been there and everything that can be done to protect them should be done, including removal of the browns by means of harvest.
Now nothing has been said about Kriss Pines being a commercial hatchery, which it always was. But because the laws against pollution have changed it should not be grand fathered. Why a State Representative is involved is beyond me as he has NO authority to enforce or change PFBC laws, regulations, or policies.
As for using the hatchery to help raise fish for stocking, it has to come within the laws that are in place now.
 
Fish efluent is what closed the hatchery on Big Spring and nearly closed other PFBC hatcheries. All of the hatcheries have had to be upgraded in the last ten years to meet DEP and EPA regulations. There is no reason why this hatchery should get by without treating the efluent.
 
+1 to Chaz above. IMHO, we should be all about doing everything possible to clean up the streams we have dumped on in the last 100+ years.
 
I'm not really pleased with what I read. What did they plan on doing with the waste in the first place? dump it in the watershed? Starting a business without doing homework is a disaster. Up at Noximoxin where I take my boat out I have seen a few buildings change hands at least 4 times. from bikes to fish and tackle to barbecue...not sure what it is now. Just from this experience tells me that the location is not good.
I do however commend them on their efforts....If indeed the fishery is 100+ years old, maybe they should restore it to its original and open it as a museum.
 
The Po is supposed to be one of the tailwaters under consideration for the tailwater enhancement program. From this article:

“Therefore, the commissioners direct the executive director to actively seek and maximize opportunities available to protect, conserve and enhance, wherever possible, wild-trout populations in tailwaters below existing reservoirs.”

What a great idea! Let's enhance the Po by pumping lots of fish crap into it!

Wanna see what the wild trout population in the Po can become? Let's start by making the WHOLE LENGTH of the stream below the dam C&R regs - w/no stocking. And how's about making the stretch between that ridiculous Parryville dam down to the mouth a no fishing thermal refuge area? Better yet, rip that damn dam out. Let Palmerton get their water from the Aquashicola. Jeez, it runs right through town. Or pump water from the Lehigh - it's much closer than the Po.

Create a top notch tailwater fishery out of the Po, and the Cressley's would be too busy making beds, and cooking breakfasts at their bed & breakfast, instead of making rubber fish to be stocked for Lunkerfest. The fish that are currently stocked in the Po could be stocked in the Lehigh. The 20 grand per year that the LRSA has to raise for stocking could be used to purchase leases/easements on the Po to increase and improve angler access.

Who's with me? :lol:
 
Hmmm. Ya know I read this thread yesterday and had to think on it for a spell. But if the business in question was anything other than a trout hatchery, then NO ONE would be talking about grandfathering anything. You make an exception for one business, you open the door...
 
Here are some reasons:

1. Runoff from both the Pennsylvania Turnpike and Fairyland Road discharges into Sawmill Run.

2. Dams are located upstream of the hatchery property and these dams heat up the water in the summer.

3. The fish that were found in the Sawmill Run were brown trout, a species not native to the United States. The only way that the brown trout could have gotten into Sawmill Run is from the trout nursery when the trout were used to stock the creek during the days when Kriss Pines had a pay-to-fish operation. So the Cressleys wonder how can they be penalized by fish breeding in the creek when the hatchery put the fish in the creek initially.

4. The fish hatchery was operated for a century and only closed for three years. It should have historic standing.

5. The Lehigh River Stocking Association plans to operate it using the best methods that are possible and reasonable but would not be able to meet the requirements of a pristine discharge.

Holy crap. This sort of reasoning should have every wild trout enthusiast in the state livid. Could you imagine the outrage if this was the reasoning given behind sacrificing a wild trout fishery for a gas well?

1 - Almost every watershed in the state is affected by runoff from roads to some degree

2 - Ditto.

3 - Probably the most offensive and self serving reasoning in this list. A wild brown trout population has likely existed since the first stockings. This particular hatchery has nothing to do with it. The stream would have likely been populated by browns at some point regardless of whether this hatchery was ever constructed. Additionally, the invasive species point is a red herring. These aren't snaked heads, or asian carp, or goldfish. The fact of the matter is that some "invasive" species are desirable, brown trout often being one of them. A viable population of invasive wild browns is far more desirable than a degraded stream stocked with hatchery trout. If a trout hatchery can degrade a wild trout stream because they regard the trout as invasive, then what stops a gas company, steel mill, or paper mill from using te same tactic?

4 - Plenty of industries operate for decades then are forced to change their operations due to environmental concerns. This is no different.

5 - I geuss this is really a matter of how far short they fall from pristine.
 
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