PFBC Class A Wild Trout Waters

I don't believe that the brown trout petition had anything to do with the Class A CR proposal made by a commissioner earlier this week.

In regards to the clearer definitions for management downstream of stocked trout waters, I am really not sure if the Petition really factored into that decision either. The Petition had no clear regulatory request other than vague slot limit regulations and scattered thoughts of a study proposal.
 
lycoflyfisher wrote:
I don't believe that the brown trout petition had anything to do with the Class A CR proposal made by a commissioner earlier this week.

In regards to the clearer definitions for management downstream of stocked trout waters, I am really not sure if the Petition really factored into that decision either. The Petition had no clear regulatory request other than vague slot limit regulations and scattered thoughts of a study proposal.

Does the PFBC EVER make anything clear so there is nothing in question? They have a way of making the rules and regulations incomprehensible.
 
lycoflyfisher wrote:
I don't believe that the brown trout petition had anything to do with the Class A CR proposal made by a commissioner earlier this week.

In regards to the clearer definitions for management downstream of stocked trout waters, I am really not sure if the Petition really factored into that decision either. The Petition had no clear regulatory request other than vague slot limit regulations and scattered thoughts of a study proposal.

Sorry if I caused confusion. I know there are really 2 distinct proposals that arose out of that meeting.

• C&R in ALL Class A's - Tabled
• Redefinition of STW boundaries w/ C&R below STW in the extended season - passed to public comment (and what I'm referencing in my last post).

I know this thread is focused on the proposal by Mr. Hussar to make all Class A's C&R only. However, even though my last post was in reference to the proposed change affecting waters below STW, the sentiment remains the same. What is the impact on wild native brook trout? Both proposals will have an impact on brown trout populations AND brook trout populations to some degree in either case. What is the projected outcome to BOTH species from either reg?
 
More effort needs to be done educating anglers on catch and release and the benefits of doing it.
Commission does a very poor job of educating anglers.
There is great potential in just educating, habitat, water quality and fish species. YouTube with a fisheries manager, fish culturaler and wardens would be popular. I don't like the social medias as they are often too narrow of a platform to spread the word. IMHO
 
Check out the fish and boat YouTube page they have been putting out a lot of educational videos during covid. Game commission has as well.
 
lycoflyfisher wrote:
Check out the fish and boat YouTube page they have been putting out a lot of educational videos during covid. Game commission has as well.

Yup.....viewed this a few days ago >


 
CRB wrote:
More effort needs to be done educating anglers on catch and release and the benefits of doing it.
Commission does a very poor job of educating anglers.
There is great potential in just educating, habitat, water quality and fish species. YouTube with a fisheries manager, fish culturaler and wardens would be popular. I don't like the social medias as they are often too narrow of a platform to spread the word. IMHO

You and I think exactly the same way about this...they need to educate anglers on proper fish handling, proper catch and release, and the benefits of catch and release fishing. We need to create a greater appreciation of our resources and how to prolong our resources and make them better than they currently are.
 
I've been checking out videos on stream restoration, physical aspects of streams, etc.

Some of them are pretty interesting.

I noticed that the view count of such videos is low.
 
I read through all five pages and found many interesting comments, including many that I agree with. It seems that most posters share a desire to protect wild trout, even if they differ in how to achieve it.

I believe that regulations do make a difference, even if there is little enforcement, by making a statement about protection of the resource. There are two small streams with wild brown and native brook trout that I fish often, on opposite sides of a ridge. One is under general regulations, the other is Catch-and-Release. I regularly catch larger fish of both species in the C&R stretch. I know this is anecdotal, but the regs are the only readily apparent difference between the streams. If anything, the C&R stream gets more fishing pressure.

I have a complimentary PA Fishing Laws ruler from E.L. Blair & Sons - Fishing Equipment at 1508 Memorial Ave. in Williamsport from 1956 (my birth year) showing a limit of 8 trout. The PA Fish Commission first set a creel limit for trout in 1925 at 25 trout. This was reduced to 20 in 1933, 15 in 1937, 10 in 1938, 8 in 1952, 6 in 1984, and 5 in 2000. I think it is high time that the limit be reduced again, at least for wild trout. It is shameful that the limit is the same for stocked trout as it is for wild trout. The only mention of wild trout that I could find in the PA Fishing Summary is no harvest (all tackle) during the extended season.

Those of us who fly fish are kidding ourselves if we think that we are not causing fish mortality by catching and releasing fish. All of us have hooked a fish deeply at one time and seen blood coming from the gills. Handling of fish also causes stress and mortality, especially during high water temps. I would rather see a reduced all tackle limit on all wild trout streams than a catch and release artificial lure regulation on Class A wild trout streams.

A limit of two fish would enable an angler to keep a gut hook fish or selectively harvest a couple of stocked trout that have swum up into a wild trout stretch. The Fish Commission has already mapped "natural reproduction" trout streams - why not call them "Wild Trout" streams and provide additional protection that may help some of them improve - at least a lower limit can do no harm.

 
C and R would be fine.

Eliminating bait not so much. Way to many anglers get shunned by this. I know a pile of ethical, responsible bait fisherman that would strongly oppose this, myself included.

Ive said a million times, there are pigs of all types of fisherman, period.
 
No more regulations!!! Educate anglers on the resource, improve habitat. Dont exclude bait fisherman and the guy that keeps a nicked fish. If it still is a huge concern then close all fishing on class a.
 
I think Flog/t in Post 71 is pretty much on target. What if a landowner's kid wants to use bait and catch a trout? What if the kid wants to keep it? Regs preventing this might just cost public access to ;yet another private property.

The commissioners had better think what they're doing before enacting such rules. We have already lost access to significant numbers of properties during my years astream; we do not need to lose more.
 
Here is good article that appeared today in the Centre Daily Times which clearly spells out the lack of commonsense with Commissioner Hussar's Class A Wild Trout motion at the last PFBC meeting. If anyone needs additional proof of just how crazy this motion was, just look up on the internet this PFBC comprehensive scientific report on the subject titled: "Angler Use, Harvest, and Economic Assessment on Wild Trout Streams in Pennsylvania"!

Here is the Centre Daily Times article today written by Mark Nale.

Afield: Pa. Fish and Boat meeting sparks debate over wild trout stream regulations

April’s Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission meeting was significant for what almost happened, not what did happen. The big event was not mentioned in the agency’s news release. Maybe it will just fade away, although several commissioners seemed hell-bent on making a big change in wild trout management.

A motion was introduced by Commissioner Eric Hussar to make all Class A Wild Trout Streams in Pennsylvania catch-and-release, artificial-lures-only. Normally, all such motions are brought up before the Fisheries and Hatcheries committee, and if passed, presented to the full board. Hussar’s motion was quickly seconded by commissioners Charlie Charlesworth and William Brock, who represents Centre County.

All three of those commissioners are members of Trout Unlimited, a national conservation and fly-fishing organization that strongly favors catch-and-release trout fishing. Although the group claims not to favor any specific tackle types, its magazine, calendar and actions show strong fly-fishing bias. Trout magazine last had a bait fishing article in 1985.

If passed, this motion would forbid the harvest of trout and the use of any type of bait (salmon eggs, minnows, earthworms, Powerbait, wax worms, etc.) on any Class A Wild Trout Stream in Pennsylvania. Hussar said the reason for his motion was to protect wild trout.

A very lively discussion ensued. Commission President Richard Lewis then said that he could not support Hussar’s motion. “I share your concern for wild trout, but you are putting forth a motion I don’t have adequate data or any knowledge that making all these streams catch and release would guarantee that these streams will have more fish,” Lewis said. Lewis asked how many miles of stream would be impacted by this proposal, but the three commissioners didn’t have an answer.

I am sure that PFBC staff will have the details for the commissioners before their next meeting. However, I did some rough calculations to get a better understanding of the scope of Hussar’s motion.

Tucked away on the commission’s website is a list of nearly 1,000 Class A streams, totaling approximately 3,000 miles of water. These streams are located in 56 counties. Centre County has 87 streams on the list. Ninety-nine percent of these streams are not mentioned in the regulation booklet and are not marked in any way with signage.

Almost all of these streams allow bait fishing and the harvest of up to five trout per day for six months of the year. They are already catch-and-release during the other six months.

After nearly 45 minutes of discussion, Commissioner Daniel Pastore made a motion to table the issue until the next Fisheries and Hatcheries Committee meeting. His motion passed seven to three.
Following the vote to table Hussar’s motion, the discussion continued online on fly-fishing message boards.

A disappointed former commission executive director John Arway posted on paflyfish.com: “… Not only does the board lack the courage to move this forward, there wasn’t a clear comment in defense about why not.” Arway called the move to make all Class A streams catch-and-release, artificial-lures-only “a no-brainer.”

A former PFBC biologist followed with this: “The ‘no-brainer’ is that when there is minimal harvest there is no need for additional fishing-related regulations. If biologists find an individual stream population that exhibits a harvest problem, deal with it appropriately, but don’t over-regulate a statewide population that does not need it. Continue to follow the science. The commissioners got it right so far.”

The more than 70 comments that followed on the message board were mixed — some supporting the motion, others supporting catch-and-release but not artificial-lures-only, and still others opposing the entire idea.

Protecting wild trout
While Hussar said his motion was made with the intention to protect wild trout, most biologists would say the number of wild trout in a given stream is primarily controlled by the available habitat, food, floods, droughts and extremely hot summer days.
In fact, Arway even admitted this in his message board post: “Although wild trout populations are controlled by Mother Nature (primarily floods and droughts), adding a No Harvest regulation will certainly protect some trout.”

About 80 percent of all trout anglers primarily fish with bait. That 80 percent of anglers would be excluded from 3,000 of streams to protect “some trout,” if this motion would pass. Almost all Class A streams became Class A while being managed under existing regulations, which allow bait fishing and a harvest of five trout per day. Do they need extra protection, and to what end?

If Hussar’s motion were to be passed by the full commission, children living along Lick Run in Howard, for example, would not be allowed to fish with bait in their backyards. If a big trout were accidentally to be hooked in the gills with a streamer and bleed badly, the angler will have to release the trout only to watch it die and go to waste. A streamside lunch of fresh-caught fried trout would be a thing of the past.

I hope that common sense prevails at the next Fisheries and Hatcheries Committee meeting.

Mark Nale May 9, 2021
Afield #871 Centre Daily Times

 
I don't think this regulation change has a chance of passing so most of this discussion is probably moot. There is plenty of evidence that C&R regs are effective though. I disagree that harvest plays no role in a fishery's health.

I think what all of these discussions highlight is that there is a serious lack of "real-time" data as it relates to individual stream health. This is even admitted in the most recent "Trout Management Plan".

There are very likely streams out there that would benefit from C&R and I'm sure there are a lot that it wouldn't make a difference. The problem is that nobody is actively monitoring populations to know whether regs are needed or not. There are simply far too many wild trout streams to keep an eye on. First-world problems.

It would be great if PFBC engaged the angling community more. An app or some other way to receive angler reports that might at least help give an idea of population health might be a good option.

I personally think it's just as silly to say that harvest isn't an issue statewide as it is to say that it is an issue statewide.
 
Article with an alternate view on making all Class A's C&R ALO >

https://www.outdoornews.com/2021/05/24/pennsylvania-bait-anglers-beware/?fbclid=IwAR3EMMPXrTD7N9WxBn3cgyrXUuZhpSEIO32OchurAt2N3Nqt5XwLukhBj7I
 
Hey Mark,
If this motion does pass (it won't), will your brother pinches his Barb's and go to single hook for the 1000000000000000000000000000000000 of fish he catches a year?

:lol:
 
afishinado wrote:
Article with an alternate view on making all Class A's C&R ALO >

https://www.outdoornews.com/2021/05/24/pennsylvania-bait-anglers-beware/?fbclid=IwAR3EMMPXrTD7N9WxBn3cgyrXUuZhpSEIO32OchurAt2N3Nqt5XwLukhBj7I

Trout Unlimited is a fly-fishing organization? Because the majority of pictures in the annual calendar feature FFers? That's some quality investigative journalism. Guess I better turn in my TU membership because I am NOT an exclusive FFer and I didn't get the memo that I had to be to join the organization.

Most interesting thing I've found in the past few months is that the number of times discussions on PAFF has been quoted in articles. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, since news these days seems to be reposting Twitter or Instagram posts. But there surely is nothing conclusive that comes about with most threads on PAFF. Most parties regurgitate their nuances and we agree to disagree on the minor points, although if we looked closely enough, we'd agree to agree we agree on most of the major points.. But us vs. them journalism sells better than rational articles..
 
As others have noted, this has no chance of passing, so it's kind of a tempest in a teapot.

Harvest does harm wild trout populations. But the harm is strongest where trout are being stocked over wild trout. Because the stocking attracts large numbers of anglers, and a high percentage are looking to harvest trout.

Since that is where the harm is the greatest, that is where it is sensible to make changes to benefit the trout populations.

Not on Class A streams, where in most cases no stocking is being done.

And stocking over native brook trout has a much more severe effect than stocking over brown trout, because brook trout are much easier to catch.

So, their wishes to improve wild trout populations are admirable. But they should prioritize on where harvest is having the most negative effects. Which is where stocking is being done over native brook trout.

 
afishinado wrote:
Article with an alternate view on making all Class A's C&R ALO >

https://www.outdoornews.com/2021/05/24/pennsylvania-bait-anglers-beware/?fbclid=IwAR3EMMPXrTD7N9WxBn3cgyrXUuZhpSEIO32OchurAt2N3Nqt5XwLukhBj7I

From the article:

"To what am I referring? It’s the Trout Unlimited effect: Trout Unlimited – a national conservation, fly-fishing organization — strongly favors catch-and-release trout fishing. Although the group claims not to favor any specific tackle types, its magazine, calendar and actions show an extraordinarily strong fly-fishing bias. Trout magazine last had a bait fishing article in 1985.

Far less than 1% of all trout anglers in Pennsylvania belong to Trout Unlimited, but their influence on the board of commissioners is huge."


Is membership in a conservation organization a bad thing?

And why is no mention made of the Sportmans Clubs effect?

The Sportsmans Clubs effect is the reason why there is still so much stocking over wild trout. It's why we have the head scratcher stocked Class A category. And it's why there is still widespread stocking over native brook trout.

Because of the inordinate political influence of sportsmans clubs.
 
RE Post 75:

The article linked to in Post 75 was not in the May 21, 2021, issue of PA Outdoor News. There was no May 24 issue. The next issue after May 21 was the June 4 issue.

I believe the article attached to Post 75 appeared in a blog belonging to Mr. Nale. I do not know whether the blog is associated with PON, though Outdoor News logos appear along with the article cited in Post 75.

At any rate, I think the 3 commissioners' hearts are in the right place, but I am afraid they are not considering other consequences, especially the loss of access if landowners would like to see kids fish with bait on their properties and kill a few fish for the table.
 
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