PFBC Class A Wild Trout Waters

[jifigz]

How would a species be federally listed when brook trout numbers are thriving? Do they list species just because they are struggling in their native habitat? Because as we know brookies are thriving in the west and are an invasive species there.

 

[silverfox]

jifigz wrote:
How would a species be federally listed when brook trout numbers are thriving? Do they list species just because they are struggling in their native habitat? Because as we know brookies are thriving in the west and are an invasive species there.

Where are you reading that they're thriving in their native range? Everything I've read indicates they're declining.

See steelhead. Listed on the ESA and stocked outside their native range.

 

[jifigz]

No where did I say they are thriving in their native range..in fact, I used the word struggling. I'm saying federally they don't list species until they are at risk of near extinction, right, because brook trout are thriving out west. Wouldn't it have to be done on the state level first (as it should be) for brookies.

So yeah, I did not say they are thriving in their native range.

 

[silverfox]

jifigz wrote:
No where did I say they are thriving in their native range..in fact, I used the word struggling. I'm saying federally they don't list species until they are at risk of near extinction, right, because brook trout are thriving out west. Wouldn't it have to be done on the state level first (as it should be) for brookies.

So yeah, I did not say they are thriving in their native range.

Again, Steelhead would be the closest example of a species that is listed federally, threatened or endangered locally, but abundant outside their native range.

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/species/steelhead-trout#overview

 

[bigjohn58]

CRB wrote:
I think catch and release no harvest on wild trout is a good idea. Look at what has happened on spring creek.
I would like to see more and no more stocking!

Exactly...look at what its done to Spring Creek. Lots and lots of small fish. Harvesting actually produces larger fish in a lot of cases. I think Spring Creek would greatly benefit from harvesting some fish. Eliminate a lot of those 10 and 11 inchers. I'm not saying have the 5 fish limit but maybe make it 2 or 3 fish limit and maybe only a small time window for harvest. Some streams would benefit from catch and release where others actually benefit a little from some harvest. Each stream would have to be monitored differently. I'm thinking the smaller the stream the more catch and release would benefit. The larger waters tend to benefit from some harvest.

 

[DaveKile]

Here is the meeting from April 12. It is 5+ hours and not sure where the Class A Wild Trout Waters points begin. Please share if you know the time code.

 

[tabasco_joe]

jifigz wrote:
Comparing wild trout harvest and impact to the ovefishing of the atlantic salmon populations or th pacific steelhead population is an absurd comparison. Blaming bait fishermen for so much damage on wild trout is also absurd. Yes, bait fishing can be harmful but so can EVERY type of fishing. Bait fishing is often the first type of fishing people learn to do. Everyone makes mistakes as a beginner, but we also need to all he beginners before we can be fanatics that care about conserving wild trout.

I can't speak for other parts of the state, but the majority of Class A's where I live see very little pressure and very little harvest. Most of the streams are small and most people think the trout are small. This doesn't provide much draw to common anglers.

What happens to my favorite stream, Kish? State that rainbows can be harvested but no wild browns? I mean, it's a sizable stream and the main focus of trout angling in my county. The browns are doing fine despite being stocked over and regular harvest regulations. But, what happens in these scenarios of class a sections being stocked??

When I think back to those instances I did see bait fishermen using poor fishing/handling practices most of them were teenagers. It seems education may be a better solution than additional regulations.

I'd also agree I don't see very much harvesting on the Class A streams I fish. I don't even see very many other fishermen.

 

[glamcaster]

bigjohn58 wrote:


Exactly...look at what its done to Spring Creek. Lots and lots of small fish. Harvesting actually produces larger fish in a lot of cases. I think Spring Creek would greatly benefit from harvesting some fish. Eliminate a lot of those 10 and 11 inchers.

What’s the issue with small fish? “Big fish” in these streams don’t fall from the sky.... In my home stream of Valley Creek, hard catch-and-release is the backbone of the Brown Trout population. BIG browns are alive and well in deeper stretches, take this fish from Fall 2019.

10-11” fish shouldn’t be a complaint of any wild trout angler, in my opinion. That age-class is invaluable for protecting ANY Class A watershed from vulnerability. VC would’ve flat-lined in the initial COVID fishing craze if this size were harvestable. Believe it or not, many of us are overjoyed to catch 10-11” fish. Pa size queens should join a Rod and Gun club or hop on a Boeing, lol

 

[glamcaster]

lycoflyfisher wrote:
I think a key part of this discussion should include a debate on c&r artificial lures only or c&r all tackle. Given the increase in documented Class A waters across the state this could potentially exclude a fairly large group of anglers from a growing number of stream miles across the state.

What a brilliant point. Does anyone have hard and fast data about gut-hooking survival with trout/fish generally speaking??? I would be willing to change my habits if so.

I will say, that I deeply-hooked a Brookie in Hawk Run early February just cut the line as close I could, and returned him. To my delight, I caught him from the same plunge pool 2x more in Feb and March. I'm positive given his fin rays and size. Weirdly the hook didn't show itself in his mouth--I just hope he makes it to spawn come fall.

I do A LOT of worm fishing on Class A/BT-holding natural repro streams. I also haven't kept a single fish in my career. Despite using barbless #12/14 hooks and setting the line appropriately, there are instances where I will gut-hook fish. There's no worse feeling out there.

 

[bigjohn58]

glamcaster wrote:

bigjohn58 wrote:


Exactly...look at what its done to Spring Creek. Lots and lots of small fish. Harvesting actually produces larger fish in a lot of cases. I think Spring Creek would greatly benefit from harvesting some fish. Eliminate a lot of those 10 and 11 inchers.

What’s the issue with small fish? “Big fish” in these streams don’t fall from the sky.... In my home stream of Valley Creek, hard catch-and-release is the backbone of the Brown Trout population. BIG browns are alive and well in deeper stretches, take this fish from Fall 2019.

10-11” fish shouldn’t be a complaint of any wild trout angler, in my opinion. That age-class is invaluable for protecting ANY Class A watershed from vulnerability. VC would’ve flat-lined in the initial COVID fishing craze if this size were harvestable. Believe it or not, many of us are overjoyed to catch 10-11” fish. Pa size queens should join a Rod and Gun club or hop on a Boeing, lol

I don't think you quite understand how Spring Creek is. When you literally catch fish after fish after fish that all look identical to the last it gets old at least to me. Its like the vast majority get stunded at that length. Are there some big fish in Spring Creek? Sure! But the ratio to big fish to small/average sized fish are way out of wack there in my opinion. I'm not the only one who complains about Spring Creek and small trout. If you look at a lot of posts in this group many feel the same way as I do. My experience from fishing waters with regs and no regs is I often encounter bigger fish outside of the regulation areas. I know there are fewer fish but often fewer fish means bigger fish.

 

[jifigz]

I love Spring Creek..I have a lot of fun there. But, like BigJohn says, the fish are very cookie cutter..I am thrilled to catch those fish. Spring Creek has a lot of good food for trout, some decent holding water, but there are lots of streams that I like so so much more than Spring..

I don't want to derail the thread as we just had a thread devoted to Spring. While I love the stream, it is nowhere near my tops or favorite trout waters.

 

[LetortAngler]

“10-11” fish shouldn’t be a complaint of any wild trout angler, in my opinion. That age-class is invaluable for protecting ANY Class A watershed from vulnerability. VC would’ve flat-lined in the initial COVID fishing craze if this size were harvestable. Believe it or not, many of us are overjoyed to catch 10-11” fish.“

I agree. Permitting harvest on Spring, imo, would be the worst possible thing that could happen to that stream for how much angling pressure it gets. We shouldn’t be trying to fix something that’s not broke. There are big fish scattered throughout Spring, and catching them will always be more of a challenge, as it should be.

 

[jifigz]

No one recommended harvest on spring in this thread, at least not that I recall. What I think you would find if harvest were allowed on Spring is that very few fish would be harvested and I don't think it would negatively impact Spring at all..

I hardly ever harvest any fish..what I would like, however, it is for the negative view of someone who chooses to harvest a fish to disappear. Others shouldn't be judged for harvesting a fish. Most all "gamefish" have those cult like followings where it is a sin to harvest a fish. Trout, bass, catfish, you name it, they have fanatics that would look at you like an ignorant fool for taking one out of the population.

 

[bigjohn58]

jifigz wrote:
No one recommended harvest on spring in this thread, at least not that I recall. What I think you would find if harvest were allowed on Spring is that very few fish would be harvested and I don't think it would negatively impact Spring at all..

I hardly ever harvest any fish..what I would like, however, it is for the negative view of someone who chooses to harvest a fish to disappear. Others shouldn't be judged for harvesting a fish. Most all "gamefish" have those cult like followings where it is a sin to harvest a fish. Trout, bass, catfish, you name it, they have fanatics that would look at you like an ignorant fool for taking one out of the population.

I'm with you. I doubt too many would harvest fish from Spring anyways if they did open it up to harvest. The traditional anglers who fish that are mostly catch and release anglers. I still think it would benefit from some harvest. There is definitely no shortage of fish there. I'm just saying though that some harvest isn't always a bad thing. You have to treat each stream a little differently and weigh the negative and positive. You also can't make things all strictly catch and release because you always will have those traditional anglers that there is no way you can change their minds or ways about catch and release fishing. Thats the PA way!

 

[afishinado]

FYI, here is a comprehensive article about Spring Creek including it's history of fishing pressure, cyclical population numbers and average historical size length of trout.


https://www.fishandboat.com/Fish/PennsylvaniaFishes/Trout/Documents/fisherySpringCreek.pdf

 

[jifigz]

BigJohn, I'm totally with you..I, too, think Spring would benefit from harvest. All of my favorite larger trout streams are managed under regular, statewide regs. I find lots of wild fish and lots of big wild fish.

 

[FishTales]

Discussion on Motion begins at 2:28.

 

[moon1284]

The way I take this post is that most people are of the opinion that fishing with bait in class As and harvesting of trout in class As (and in some cases increased harvest in Class As) will improve the class a streams throughout pa.

 

[bigjohn58]

moon1284 wrote:
The way I take this post is that most people are of the opinion that fishing with bait in class As and harvesting of trout in class As (and in some cases increased harvest in Class As) will improve the class a streams throughout pa.

Everything in moderation. Select harvesting leads to proper management and healthy populations. Just look at hunting regulations (although PA I feel is lacking in both hunting and fishing management).

 

[silverfox]

I wanted to clarify my previous posts. My concern here is that nowhere in the proposed regulation OR the petition that predated it were brook trout mentioned. I think anyone who claims to care about brook trout should, at a minimum, be asking the question; "what impact will this regulation change have on wild native brook trout populations"?.

As Shannon White's study on the Loyalsock has shown and has been reinforced by research in MD, brook trout use those downstream sections of larger waters to over-winter. We know that as brown trout populations increase, brook trout populations decrease. That's an undeniable fact. I personally believe that the correlation is location-dependent, which again reinforces that PA is too large of a state with too many variations in conditions to address with blanket regulations.

I would just like to see some data to understand the effects of what was proposed. Will the C&R benefit for brook trout in these affected waters outweigh the impact from increased brown trout presence? Will C&R for brook trout in these waters have a benefit on brook trout at all? I honestly need to understand this to know whether to support it or not. I'm all for C&R for brook trout and I understand that this reg change will in fact benefit brook trout from an angling standpoint, but it also likely means an increase in large predatory brown trout. Which one has a greater benefit?