Petition to end the practice of stocking over wild native brook trout.

Yes. I know but I said wild trout not natives.

It seems like Mike was eluding to if the stream has browns or a mixed population then it doesn't matter.

Something tells me wild brown trout benefit from not being stocked over also.


Again political pressures are not part of a biological benefit.


The reason the PFBC has been reducing the numbers of hatchery trout stocked over native brook trout is pretty obvious. Because they know stocking over native brookies harms their populations. And reducing the numbers stocked reduces that harm.

You ever hear them admit this?
 
Stocking encourages angling and ultimately harvesting. Far more than Nature can provide. That’s why we invented the hatchery. Stocking trout sells bait, tackle and most of all fishing licenses. Politicians use stocking to get votes. It’s become a big entitlement program.

And it’s hubris. We thought that humans could provide more and better trout than Mother Nature could and do it cheaper. She was considered to be inefficient. Now we know better, but don’t know how to change without a massive shift in how we manage the resource.
 
Susquehanna,
When you said “those streams” I took that to mean Havice and Treaster in particular. I would not want to speculate what the AFM’s (for Havice and Treaster) response would be, nor would I want to take the chance of treading on his toes.

As for your second question, which was generic regarding the benefits of stocking adult trout, also known as “catchable trout” in the language of fisheries biologists.
1. Provide a temporary source of recreation in streams and lakes that do not support wild trout.
2. Supplement or enhance existing wild trout populations in order to provide attractive fisheries (fish size and abundance) commensurate with recreational demand that the wild trout alone could not meet. This includes providing close to home stocked fisheries in high human population density areas.
3. While not an objective, adult stocked trout fisheries with some frequency initiate creation of wild coldwater fisheries in streams or stream sections where water quality or habitat conditions have improved.
4. Money generated by the anglers whose license sales, stamp purchases, and equipment purchases are stocked trout dependent in part supports efforts to identify, protect and enhance wild trout populations as well as the flow, habitat, water temperatures, and water quality upon which they depend. Even if the fed excise tax on stocked trout angler fishing equipment is generated because of the adult trout program, those monies distributed from the feds to the states based on license sales may not be used to raise or distribute adult trout.
5. While not an objective, stocked trout fisheries probably reduce angling pressure on some wild trout fisheries while increasing pressure on others. In the former case, imagine the potential pressure that could be added to wild trout fisheries, especially those that are well known already, if some low to moderate percentage of the primarily stocked trout anglers continued to seek out trout fisheries even if stocking were terminated. And imagine how some presently lesser known wild trout waters might receive additional publicity in order to meet angler demand for wild trout fishery info.
 
You keep thinking I asked the question I did not.

However you didn't answer salmanoids question at all.

What are the benefits to stocking adult trout?

This is not the same as what are the benefits to stocking trout over wild fish populations in Treaster and Havice?

Since you don't want to tread on shoes I can respect that.

I am beginning to see you missed your calling as a politician or press secratary.


So let me finally ask a question since I never did.

What are the benefits, biologically speaking, of stocking over wild trout populations?
 
Susquehanna,
I apologize, as I now see that it was not originally your question. It was Salmonid’s way back in post #56. Sorry for my confusion.


 
Susquehanna wrote:

What are the benefits, biologically speaking, of stocking over wild trout populations?

Since PFBC's mission is "Resource First", I think a more appropriate way to phrase the question would be; "How does the wild trout resource benefit from stocking adult trout over wild trout populations?"

More relative to this thread and my concerns; "How does stocking adult nonnative trout over wild native brook trout protect, conserver, or enhance the wild native brook trout population?"

Note the numerous scientific studies cited on the petition page that answer this question.

Also, on Mike's post #83

1) In a lot of cases, it's not "temporary". According to PFBC, most people practice C&R. A lot of our waters, especially wild trout waters, are perfectly capable of "holding-over" stocked trout. If you're stocking a stream that supports natural reproduction, it's not going to be temporary.

2) Stocking over wild trout doesn't "enhance" the fishery from a biological standpoint. This is a slippery slope. If the goal is to turn every flowing water into an artificial fishery with fish larger than the stream can produce naturally, then all is lost. Every brook trout stream in the state is subject to this failed logic and is maybe the reason the commission stocks over so many wild brook trout populations.

3) Unfortunately, typically with nonnative fish. Rather than restore a watershed or stream to its "original condition" pre-pollution, it's immediately a candidate for stocking. Here's a good example of this: https://youtu.be/OjzuIln9YG0 The water quality is improving due to AMR and the state (and others) are stocking browns and the browns are taking over the existing ST populations in connected tribs.

4) The flip side of this is that my license money is going to raise stocked trout. I supported the Wild Trout Stamp until I found out they were using the funds on Spruce Creek to benefit the Pay-to-play fishery there that 99.9% of the population doesn't benefit from. It's a simple fact that PFBC spends more money on the hatchery program than any other expenditure. So wild trout fans are subsidizing stocking and have no way to opt-out.

5) I bet a large number of people fish for trout because of stocking and if stocking ceases, they'd fish for something else or go somewhere else. My local stream is a really good example of this. People stomp the banks to mud for a week DUE to stocking then never touch it after that. They would likely never touch it if it weren't stocked. Piney Run that I've mentioned multiple times is a typical relatively small brook trout stream. PFBC states that wild trout streams get little pressure and again, everyone practices C&R, so by that logic, there would be very little pressure on the wild brook trout there if it weren't for stocking. The stocking causes incidental mortality. ST are probably far more likely to be accidentally killed than wild BT when you artificially increase angling pressure due to stocking.

There was an in-season stocking the other day on my local STW and I've fished it or driven along it almost every day since and I think I've seen about 5 people fishing it since it was stocked a second time. Nobody walks more than 15 feet from a bridge or access point there and the fish spread out pretty quickly throughout the stream. In this case, it's mostly a complete waste of money. There's fairly limited public access and people clearly aren't harvesting all the fish stocked. The fish clear out from the heavily fished sections and go hide in the more remote areas along w/ the wild BT/compete w/ the wild BT.

I always hear about this shadow group of heavily influential politically connected stocked trout fan group that comes down hard on the politicians which then come down hard on PFBC to keep stocking. I'm sorry, but I call BS. It's a red herring. The boogeyman. Any politician that thinks they'll lose an election because of stocking needs their head examined.
Besides, who cares what some unruly group of stocked trout fans think? Isn't it supposed to be resource first?
 
I am fine with the rephrase and everything you said.
I have nothing to add other I had to discuss someone else's question and it prompted me to then ask my own.
Both of which went unanswered, not that I am owed one however reading between the lines is telling.

Well in this case, between the blank lines.
 
Likewise, what are the biological benefits of fishing over wild trout populations? Where one draws the line is a value judgement. Recall that in some countries C&R is not permitted; if you fish , you must harvest.
 
You first.
If you wish for a tit for tat, you got to show me your **** first.:lol:

Value judgement has nothing to do with biological benefits.
We can discuss the political and social ends of the spectrum but only after the biological science is discussed.
However I do have a few answers to your question.
Until then....
 
I recommend discussing the TOPIC, and quit the personal attacks.
 
What definition are you using for personal attack?
Genuinely confused here.
I didn't personal attack anyone.

If anything I am trying to discuss the topic but it seems like a one way conversation where questions go unanswered.

I will leave it to you troutbert since this is the second thread and third time you have acted as spokesman after I have posted and thus derailed my question.
 
Treaster and Havice are small forested streams with mixed populations of native brook trout and wild browns.

I think the current PFBC biologists would be happy to quit stocking Treaster and Havice, and put the hatchery trout in a more appropriate place, if the public supported that, and they wouldn't face a big backlash from the public, the sportsmens clubs, and their state representatives.
 
Political and social again.

Has nothing to do with my question for the fifth time.
 
As a famous Pa Fisheries Biologist, Bureau Chief, and skilled wild trout angler, the one who pushed Operation Future forward, once told me as a young ecologist/fisheries biologist, perhaps a bit idealistic, if you aren’t prepared to face political realities, then you aren’t prepared to be a fisheries manager.
 
We can discuss them once you talk the biological realities.

 
One more try.

How does a wild trout resource benefit biologically from stocking adult trout over its wild trout populations?
 
>>How does a wild trout resource benefit biologically from stocking adult trout over its wild trout populations?>>

Has Mike or anyone else actually asserted that said benefits exist in the question as posed or framed? If so, I cannot find it anywhere on this thread.

I only raise this because at a certain point, the monotony of repetition becomes wearisome..
 
He didn't and I never said he did.
I am asking it just now since I was dragged into the conversation by him.
Like anything else in an organic conversation, sometimes a question or topic gets thrown out there, it doesn't have to originate from something else.

I agree that the montony of repitiion gets wearisome but I am tired of people everywhere skirting questions and not really answering them.

If we want a genuine conversation on this subject then we must first acknowledge uncomfortable truths. If we cannot then the rest of the conversation is disingenuous.
IMO of course.

He would be surprised how much I agree with him if he could just admit there is absolutely no benefit to individual populations being stocked over.

If he never made the claim, or does not believe it, then Iam truly puzzled why it just isn't said .

Lucky for you my work today is over and I can go fishing now and walk away from this one eyed monster and the conversation can resume away from my question.

In reality, I might be the lucky one.
Fish on!
 
RLeep2 wrote:
>>How does a wild trout resource benefit biologically from stocking adult trout over its wild trout populations?>>

Has Mike or anyone else actually asserted that said benefits exist in the question as posed or framed? If so, I cannot find it anywhere on this thread.

I don't recall the PFBC ever saying that stocking hatchery trout benefits wild trout populations.

They have said consistently that trout stocking is for recreation since at least the 1970s.

So that is the conflict. Some people want hatchery trout stocked over native brook trout because they like catching the larger hatchery trout, in streams close to them.

Some people say stocking over native brook trout should be ended, because stocking over native brook trout suppresses their populations, and ending stocking over them improves their populations.

And both sides try to persuade the decision makers.

Which is where the petition comes in.
 
That’s right troutbert (your first two paragraphs in #99). I used to do numerous presentations to various groups, including TU Chapters, sportsmen’s clubs, Federation meetings, PSU classes, etc during the period 1977-1981 leading up to the implementation of Operation Future. Burned into my mind are the phrases that went something like this....adult trout are not stocked to establish reproducing populations, but to provide a temporary source of recreation. In many cases waters are borrowed at a time of the year when they are cold enough to support recreational trout fisheries. In fact, the program is deemed most successful if every stocked fish is harvested.

The point was that in similarity to what you just said, presentations steered away from the idea that many adult stocked trout were surviving year around and making any contributions to or creating wild trout populations. In fact, there was a study of tagged stocked trout survival when stocked in late fall or early winter in northcentral freestoners somewhere around 1974/1975. Survival to early spring was pitiful. The irony is that anglers wanted fall or early winter stockings done because the survivors would be more wild or like wild fish and that study was in response to their request.

As far as I can tell because I never heard it mentioned, the state of knowledge at the time was that adult stocked trout had not produced reproducing trout populations. My assumption today is that back then the thought was that the BT (and many ST) populations originated from the widely spread fry stockings in the 1800’s plus stockings in the early 1900’s prior to WW2. Let’s remember that the strains were different then from today.

Disclaimer:
To reiterate, these were remarks made in the late 1970’s so parts may or may not reflect present day thinking. I provided this info in support of troutbert’s comment about that period and perhaps the prior decade.
 
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