Petition to end the practice of stocking over wild native brook trout.

Silverfox, do you know of a location where hatchery trout are stocked directly over Chesapeake logperch as you have referenced a number of times? My understanding is that those fish typically do not travel very far up tributaries from the river, dependent on the habitat found in the lower reaches of specific tributaries.

 
To clarify, I do not believe the brook trout at low elevations are an actual subspecies - but they do show some traits that seem to indicate a higher tolerance for manmade environmental stress. If that stress was applied to the brook trout typically found at higher elevations, I wonder how they'd handle it and if there would be any difference. I don't think it has been tested but maybe it has and I just didn't hear of it. If those traits are at all genetic it would be valuable to preserve them.

Lyco, fwiw many of the streams I'm thinking of weren't documented by PFBC until 2012 or later. That would make sense why ebtjv isn't showing the area and if priority is also based on overlays with forest cover that's another reason they wouldn't get called out as a priority area as the forest patches are small and narrow in SE PA. I do a lot of GIS work so understand completely how the overlays can be used.
 
lycoflyfisher wrote:
Silverfox, do you know of a location where hatchery trout are stocked directly over Chesapeake logperch as you have referenced a number of times? My understanding is that those fish typically do not travel very far up tributaries from the river, dependent on the habitat found in the lower reaches of specific tributaries.
Click to expand...

Absolutely and that's exactly the issue. The logperch use the lower sections of the stocked streams (fishing creek & muddy creek as 2 specific examples). According to PFBC (and common knowledge) stocked trout move (i.e. One trout from Wysox Creek was found 123 miles away 16 days after it was stocked.). This is the time of year I start focusing on smallmouth and pike lower in larger WWF rivers and when I start seeing all the leftover yellow trout all the way down in those lower rivers. That stocked trout movement is one of the reasons they gave for ending brook trout stocking (they are most likely to leave immediately after stocking).

Just to clarify, I understand that water quality, other darter species, nonnative/invasive species, nitrates, PCB's etc. etc. etc. all likely play a much larger role in the logperch's future than a few stocked trout.

Also, I appreciate that PFBC contributed significantly to research and reintroduction efforts for the logperch.

Are you suggesting that stocked trout have no impact on logperch? Do the stocked trout in Fishing Ck or Muddy Ck never reach the Susky? Serious question.
 
sarce wrote:I do a lot of GIS work so understand completely how the overlays can be used.
Click to expand...

Could you produce an overlay of:

Streams sections stocked by the PFBC.

Streams on the natural reproduction list.

I think both layers are on the PFBC website, and on PASDA.

It would be interesting to be able to see this visually, and also know on how many streams this occurs, and the stream mileage.

The PFBC does not publish a brook trout layer. But people familiar with PA streams will know which streams are limestone and which are freestone, where brook trout are common.
 
On a sidenote for any other GIS folks, on May 14th, PFBC added the SSB (Spawning Stock Biomass) to the NR dataset on PASDA. I wish it had species composition, but getting the SSB is a huge plus.

Troutbert, it should be pretty easy to run a query on overlap between NR and stocking. I'm a bit swamped or I'd do it now. Headed north for 4 days. If sarce doesn't do it I'll make that when I get back.
 
TB, I would give it a try but my free time is already going into some GIS work on MD brookies and then also coordinating some water temp studies. A month from now when that's all done I'd be happy to try, remind me later if no one does it sooner.
 
silverfox wrote:
On a sidenote for any other GIS folks, on May 14th, PFBC added the SSB (Spawning Stock Biomass) to the NR dataset on PASDA. I wish it had species composition, but getting the SSB is a huge plus.

Troutbert, it should be pretty easy to run a query on overlap between NR and stocking. I'm a bit swamped or I'd do it now. Headed north for 4 days. If sarce doesn't do it I'll make that when I get back.
Click to expand...

That would be awesome.

Have fun fishing! Conditions should be pretty good.

I'm curious to see what we can learn from the Spawning Stock Biomass info.

For the GIS folks, do you have to spend big bucks to buy ArcGIS, or are there less expensive alternatives?




 
troutbert wrote:
silverfox wrote:
On a sidenote for any other GIS folks, on May 14th, PFBC added the SSB (Spawning Stock Biomass) to the NR dataset on PASDA. I wish it had species composition, but getting the SSB is a huge plus.

Troutbert, it should be pretty easy to run a query on overlap between NR and stocking. I'm a bit swamped or I'd do it now. Headed north for 4 days. If sarce doesn't do it I'll make that when I get back.
Click to expand...

That would be awesome.

Have fun fishing! Conditions should be pretty good.

I'm curious to see what we can learn from the Spawning Stock Biomass info.

For the GIS folks, do you have to spend big bucks to buy ArcGIS, or are there less expensive alternatives?
Click to expand...

QGIS is free and arguably better than paid options. I know guys at the state who use it and prefer it over options that have big dollar signs associated.

One note of caution here. I'm trying to find documentation on this, but the SSB field in that NR data might be subbasin classification ID not spawning stock biomass. It's listed that way in the metadata. So I believe I misspoke about that. Sorry.
 
You can get a personal use license for ESRI products for $100/year. Be sure that your computer is pretty fast and has a lot of available storage.

There is another free program out there called QGIS but I haven't used it. It's more code based which is not my forte.
 
SSB is the standard abbreviation for sub-subbssin within the PFBC. Additionally, I never heard anyone use the term spawning stock biomass within the agency other than those of us who were on Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission species-specific technical committees or boards working with anadromous or catadromous fisheries. Perhaps they use the term in Lake Erie as well, but I never heard that mentioned. It was certainly never used in reference to trout or other inland species.

Regarding Chesapeake Logperch vs stocked trout, the best populations of the logperch that I have seen are sympatric with wild brown trout populations, and the very best have been sympatric with fairly good wild brown trout populations, so I would not be concerned about a few stocked trout passing through logperch territories. An additional logperch population is apparently sympatric with what appears to be a growing, more recently established wild brown trout population as that trout population has expanded from the headwaters down to the mouth over an approximately 35 yr period.
 
Mike wrote:
SSB is the standard abbreviation for sub-subbssin within the PFBC. Additionally, I never heard anyone use the term spawning stock biomass within the agency other than those of us who were on Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission species-specific technical committees or boards working with anadromous or catadromous fisheries. Perhaps they use the term in Lake Erie as well, but I never heard that mentioned. It was certainly never used in reference to trout or other inland species.

Regarding Chesapeake Logperch vs stocked trout, the best populations of the logperch that I have seen are sympatric with wild brown trout populations, and the very best have been sympatric with fairly good wild brown trout populations, so I would not be concerned about a few stocked trout passing through logperch territories. An additional logperch population is apparently sympatric with what appears to be a growing, more recently established wild brown trout population as that trout population has expanded from the headwaters down to the mouth over an approximately 35 yr period.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Too much striper discussion lately clouded my head. Also SSB popped up and at first glance it seemed to correspond to biomass until I started seeing "F, G & H"... Jumped the gun.

Interesting info on the logperch.
 
East Branch Cowley Run (Cameron County at Sizerville State Park) is still on the stocking list.

That's a small stream. A jump-across crick. (For people who are better jumpers than me.).

 
I found an inordinate amount of stocked Browns and Bows in Red Run (Mix Run trib), Elk County, last week. I know there’s wild Browns in that watershed, but the only wild fish I caught were Brookies. Red is Class A in the section I was in. Why is this being stocked? Club or private stocked I assume, as it’s not on the PFBC stocking list. And no way all those fish came up from the stocked section of Mix. I was a mile or more up Red from the confluence, and there was way too many of them. Water temp in Mix below the confluence was 56 deg. Red was 53 deg. No way they all ran up for thermal refuge yet.

Why is this allowed?
 
There are no current regulations in PA that regulate the stocking of fish by private entities that I am aware of. I believe this was mentioned as an issue in the updated trout management plan. I would imagine there will be significant pushback from the aquaculture industry to any further regulation, and the implementation of such a program would likely take additional staffing in PFBC.

Like you Swattie, I have seen stocked trout in some crazy places where they have no business. Along with many other fish species likely a result of the PA bucket brigade for example a gold fish in windfall run. Many of the invasive and non native fish introduction in pa are likely connected to angler introductions.

 
Swattie87 wrote:
I found an inordinate amount of stocked Browns and Bows in Red Run (Mix Run trib), Elk County, last week. I know there’s wild Browns in that watershed, but the only wild fish I caught were Brookies. Red is Class A in the section I was in. Why is this being stocked? Club or private stocked I assume, as it’s not on the PFBC stocking list. And no way all those fish came up from the stocked section of Mix. I was a mile or more up Red from the confluence, and there was way too many of them. Water temp in Mix below the confluence was 56 deg. Red was 53 deg. No way they all ran up for thermal refuge yet.

Why is this allowed?
Click to expand...

Since it's Class A, that is probably outlaw stocking, not "allowed."

Contact the PFBC.


 
Swattie87 wrote:
I found an inordinate amount of stocked Browns and Bows in Red Run (Mix Run trib), Elk County, last week. I know there’s wild Browns in that watershed, but the only wild fish I caught were Brookies. Red is Class A in the section I was in. Why is this being stocked? Club or private stocked I assume, as it’s not on the PFBC stocking list. And no way all those fish came up from the stocked section of Mix. I was a mile or more up Red from the confluence, and there was way too many of them. Water temp in Mix below the confluence was 56 deg. Red was 53 deg. No way they all ran up for thermal refuge yet.

Why is this allowed?
Click to expand...

I was just talking with KenU about Red Run this week. PFBC is aware but I'm not sure who's doing the stocking. It has been going on for a while apparently.

I believe the TMP (without looking) states that a statewide stocking permit should be in place by 2023 I believe. The question I have is whether it will be a "rubber stamp" affair or if they'll actually put the stops to that kind of thing. The other question I have is how PFBC is going to get the word out. Ideally, every private hatchery in the state would be required to record the permit when they sell fish. It will be interesting to see how that shakes out.

As lycoflyfisher says, I suspect the aquaculture industry will be up in arms about it. I don't know why PA should be different than any other state when it comes to stocking permits though. As PFBC says, all the neighboring states and most states in the country require permits for private stocking of public waterways. I don't know how the AFM''s (or anyone else) is supposed to manage a waterway if they don't know what's being put into it.
 
tb - Funny, I just checked your book, on Red Run. (I have the Third Edition.) You mentioned finding stockers from a co-op nursery there. Guess it’s been going on for a while. Not sure when it was added to the Class A list.

I’ll add this. The numbers of wild ST were impressive, but they were all dinks. Biggest was maybe 5”. Wonder why...

Only legal sized fish I caught were the stockers (about a dozen of them) and one Brown that in the absence of turning up the stockers I probably would have thought was wild, but not sure now.
 
About a 20 person post, that sure will destroy all. Seen it all my life, a small think tank for you and never for all! I agree Trout Lives Matter.

Where were you 50 years ago, did not care? When was the last time you picked up a pen and wrote a handwritten letter! To a friend, a brother, a new kind or a old.

I got it, never! a blast to be square in a round world! A tomorrow in a today and a real
lack of Pa. adventure!

I smell your sorrow,

Maxima12
 
Swattie87 wrote:
tb - Funny, I just checked your book, on Red Run. (I have the Third Edition.) You mentioned finding stockers from a co-op nursery there. Guess it’s been going on for a while. Not sure when it was added to the Class A list.

I’ll add this. The numbers of wild ST were impressive, but they were all dinks. Biggest was maybe 5”. Wonder why...

Only legal sized fish I caught were the stockers (about a dozen of them) and one Brown that in the absence of turning up the stockers I probably would have thought was wild, but not sure now.
Click to expand...

At the time of the third edition (2000) I think Red Run was not on the Class A list. So, the club stocking was probably not breaking the rules then.

I don't know when it was put on the Class A list. But now that it is on the Class A list, the stocking probably is breaking the rules.

 
A 1 person conversation, that will show them all. A degenerative mind, big think reduced to small think! All Minds Matter!

Where were you 50 years ago, when I was young? When was the last time you played an 8 track and danced with a friend! A girl, mother, wife or sister.

I got it, never! A square in a wild trout world! A tomorrow of status quo today
resist change
and try nothing better!

I smell hatchery fish

Susquehanna
 
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