PA Opening Day plans

[HopBack]

Our forefathers are to blame for extirpation of brook trout in the Appalachian region. By 1890 all brook trout were mitigated to headwaters only due to massive deforestation. No amount of work you do now will bring back the natural order of things. We can do our best by not stocking over wild populations to preserve what we still have but overall our populations will continue to decline due to modern development, industry and environmental factors.

All hail the mighty Brown trout!!

 

[jifigz]

Brown trout are pretty rad.....

 

[Fish Sticks]

Our forefathers are to blame for extirpation of brook trout in the Appalachian region. By 1890 all brook trout were mitigated to headwaters only due to massive deforestation. No amount of work you do now will bring back the natural order of things. We can do our best by not stocking over wild populations to preserve what we still have but overall our populations will continue to decline due to modern development, industry and environmental factors.

All hail the mighty Brown trout!!

No one ever said they were trying to bring back a pre-colonial reference condition. There is a huge spectrum between 2 foot long 7lb brook trout and PFBC fueling their complete loss in our streams. For those who think healthy brook trout populations in large streams are impossible go to any of the states bordering Pa to the south or 20 min south of the PA/MD border and see what not shooting yourself in the foot and being intentional in managing for brook trout and biodiversity can do.

slate, cedar, kettle watershed and others have largely intact habitat whats accelerating their decline now is not our forefathers, Its us. Its the consequences of the annual invasion being launched on their doorstep by PFBC and slate run brown trout club and not acknowledging where these fish live and what they need.

 

[Mike]

My $10 million estimate came from the approximate avg cost of a stocked adult trout including delivery being about $3 using round numbers. Even at $4 if inflation has really taken its toll over the past 10 yrs or so you’re looking at a $12.8 million price tag with a $93 million economic impact, which would still be a good cost/benefit ratio. Perhaps PSU considered the co-op fish as part of the cost. I did not since in my mind that is a separate program. Likewise, they may have considered the cost of the fingerling stocking program, which again is a separate program in my view. In reality, when most people talk about the trout stocking program in Pa, they are usually speaking about the 3.2 million state stocked adult trout.

As for the hellbenders, I am still not buying that argument entirely until it it is shown that there is a negative impact at the population level. That means a stream study. What the stocked trout in hellbender streams are really eating to my knowledge has not been answered. Likewise the estimated impact at the population level in such streams. As previously stated, what I have been told is the best hellbender research sampling site on Kettle Ck also happens to be one of the major stocking points for PFBC trout and club trout.

As for Chesapeake Logperch, to my knowledge there are no actual data on trout consuming C logperch, let alone a population impact. What we do know is that the best populations exist among Class C or Class B wild Brown Trout populations in unstocked streams. Furthermore, the way of describing the stocking that occurs in streams with C Logperch is that one population is within at least part of a stocked trout section. The other logperch populations are removed to well-removed from the stocked trout sections. In one case the distance is around 5 miles. In the other case, if it is the stream about which I am thinking, there was at least one intentional introduction of C Logperch into a stream where no natural population occurred. This suggests to me that the concern over trout being stocked in the stre

Low angler use would be a practical reason for removal of some streams from the trout stocking program. I suspect that some would be wild ST streams.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Brown trout are pretty rad.....

I agree

Thats why I don’t advocate for stocking invasive brook trout in italy over native brown trout.

Native fish conservation is a two way street, alot of people forget that

 

[Fish Sticks]

Yes Mike brown trout will eat small mammals, any fish they can fit in their mouth, but their not eating juvenile and larval hellbenders despite research that says they have the ability to predate on them more heavily than native brook trout would have and Herpetologist Peter Petokas saying their an issue.

https://ag.purdue.edu/department/extension/hellbender/_docs/gall-predatorprey.pdf

I love the mentality that if PA fish and boat purposefully doesn’t study it in PA it doesn’t exist.

Maryland has altered their stocking due to hellbenders but no ALL these other states are just full of shi*when it cones to the dangers of these things and PA, largely regarded as lagging severely in fisheries management and a pariah in conservation of aquatic native species, knows best.

 

[Mike]

Again the reference to a controlled lab experiment. That’s a good step one leading to a study that would validate lab observations in the field where variables are much more diverse. For example, in the presence of multiple forage organisms and complex habitat structure to what extent do stocked trout consume hellbenders?

 

[Fish Sticks]

Again the reference to a controlled lab experiment suggestive that there MAY be an impact in the real world.

…….but that despite other states changing their behavior PA will not actually investigate what that impact is in the interest of what they perceive to be vital for license sales. Classic Fox watching the Hen house. And also Peter Petokas’s, Maryland DNR’s concerns means diddly.

 

[silverfox]

Our forefathers are to blame for extirpation of brook trout in the Appalachian region. By 1890 all brook trout were mitigated to headwaters only due to massive deforestation. No amount of work you do now will bring back the natural order of things. We can do our best by not stocking over wild populations to preserve what we still have but overall our populations will continue to decline due to modern development, industry and environmental factors.

All hail the mighty Brown trout!!

What about other states who have fixed the damage and restored brook trout? Do you mean it won't work in Pennsylvania? Curious why you think we're so unique. Other than how our aquatic resource management agency is structured compared to other states.

We can do our best by not stocking over wild populations to preserve what we still have but overall our populations will continue to decline due to modern development, industry, brown trout, and environmental factors.

FTFY

 

[silverfox]

My $10 million estimate came from the approximate avg cost of a stocked adult trout including delivery being about $3 using round numbers. Even at $4 if inflation has really taken its toll over the past 10 yrs or so you’re looking at a $12.8 million price tag with a $93 million economic impact, which would still be a good cost/benefit ratio. Perhaps PSU considered the co-op fish as part of the cost. I did not since in my mind that is a separate program. Likewise, they may have considered the cost of the fingerling stocking program, which again is a separate program in my view. In reality, when most people talk about the trout stocking program in Pa, they are usually speaking about the 3.2 million state stocked adult trout.

As for the hellbenders, I am still not buying that argument entirely until it it is shown that there is a negative impact at the population level. That means a stream study. What the stocked trout in hellbender streams are really eating to my knowledge has not been answered. Likewise the estimated impact at the population level in such streams. As previously stated, what I have been told is the best hellbender research sampling site on Kettle Ck also happens to be one of the major stocking points for PFBC trout and club trout.

As for Chesapeake Logperch, to my knowledge there are no actual data on trout consuming C logperch, let alone a population impact. What we do know is that the best populations exist among Class C or Class B wild Brown Trout populations in unstocked streams. Furthermore, the way of describing the stocking that occurs in streams with C Logperch is that one population is within at least part of a stocked trout section. The other logperch populations are removed to well-removed from the stocked trout sections. In one case the distance is around 5 miles. In the other case, if it is the stream about which I am thinking, there was at least one intentional introduction of C Logperch into a stream where no natural population occurred. This suggests to me that the concern over trout being stocked in the stream’s tribs was minimal.

That assumes that every angler is a trout angler, or fishes specifically because of stocked trout. I thought bass anglers outnumbered trout anglers?

 

[DomR]

Unfortunately I'll be in Daytona drinking invasive beers not native to FL. They'll be much needed after visiting the in-laws for a few days. Otherwise I'd be going out for the opener, just brings back too many memories for me to miss.

On another note, for a living in a state that has so much fantastic fishing, you all b!tch alot about it!!!

 

[jifigz]

Whelp, I think it is safe to say that this thread has been derailed from a thread about PA opening day plans and is now a brook trout thread....

Dagnabbit.

So, yeah, I'm burning down a thread on opening day.....

 

[Fish Sticks]

Low angler use would be a practical reason for removal of some streams from the trout stocking program. I suspect that some would be wild ST streams.

If angler whims are the only thing that dictates management this whole conservation thing doesn’t work coherently.

 

[silverfox]

Whelp, I think it is safe to say that this thread has been derailed from a thread about PA opening day plans and is now a brook trout thread....

Dagnabbit.

So, yeah, I'm burning down a thread on opening day.....

I'd go back and look at how that started. The culprits aren't who you think they are, unless you consider responding to trolling instigating.

Anyway, enjoy the stockers and the millions and millions of dollars they bring in to make more stockers.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Unfortunately I'll be in Daytona drinking invasive beers not native to FL. They'll be much needed after visiting the in-laws for a few days. Otherwise I'd be going out for the opener, just brings back too many memories for me to miss.

On another note, for a living in a state that has so much fantastic fishing, you all b!tch alot about it!!!

We are not complaining about the fishing are we now.

 

[jifigz]

I'd go back and look at how that started. The culprits aren't who you think they are, unless you consider responding to trolling instigating.

Anyway, enjoy the stockers and the millions and millions of dollars they bring in to make more stockers.

I pointed a finger at no one. I'm just stating what happened.

 

[tomgamber]

I'm not sure if this is directed at me or not...

Its not directed at anyone. But that was all i needed to read.

 

[6xAdams(Jones)]

Whelp, I think it is safe to say that this thread has been derailed from a thread about PA opening day plans and is now a brook trout thread....

Dagnabbit.

So, yeah, I'm burning down a thread on opening day.....

Apologies for mentioning potential economic benefits. I never imagined...

 

[pcray1231]

Environmentalist: The environment is to be saved, preserved, set aside, protected from human abuse.

Conservationist: The environment is something we use, so we have to conserve it and take care of it, so that others can use it in the future.

 

[troutbert]

Our forefathers are to blame for extirpation of brook trout in the Appalachian region.

The brook trout were never extirpated in PA.