Off on a tangent.....

[Beernut]

I love this forum, regardless of any thread hijacking that takes place. It's as simple as just moving on from a thread with posts that annoy you. Really, it's that simple.

Life is too short to let the little things complicate it. Happy Holidays everyone! 🎄

Exactly this ^^^^^^ there is so much good information on this site, just don't click on post that have gone off the rails. Now where's the brisket and crawfish pattern posts?

 

[troutbert]

When I do write my book on "How to Run a Fly Fishing Forum and Be a Millionaire," there is a chapter called "Wack-A-Mole: How Some People are Just Jerks and Need to Be Banned." These are the kind of people that somehow think they can outplay admins and mods on a site. It is one of my favorite chapters. Lots of good stories of people over the years physically threatening us, saying "they're gonna burn this site down" and all sorts of sneaky games that we see over and over again.

All web forums need moderation, including the willingness to kick people out occasionally, in order to thrive.

I think that is a kind of "natural law" of web forums. If you don't do it, aggressors will destroy the forum. You see that on all types of forums, both big and small, and on all types of topics. It's not specific to fly fishing forums.,

Writing a book on managing web forums is a good idea.

 

[FrankTroutAngler]

I don't mean to be critical here, but I think the thing that went unnoticed by owner Dave Kile, the moderators, and probably all but one of the members here, is that the main perp and his sidekick perp, for nearly the last two years, were only using this website to advertise and increase the membership in their organization. A quick peruse of the Pennsylvania Chapter of the Native Fish Coalition website reveals that their membership has jumped a whopping fifty percent -- that's 50% -- in just under two years! That's right, they went from having two members to having three members.

 

[silverfox]

I don't mean to be critical here, but I think the thing that went unnoticed by owner Dave Kile, the moderators, and probably all but one of the members here, is that the main perp and his sidekick perp, for nearly the last two years, were only using this website to advertise and increase the membership in their organization. A quick peruse of the Pennsylvania Chapter of the National Fish Coalition website reveals that their membership has jumped a whopping fifty percent -- that's 50% -- in just under two years! That's right, they went from having two members to having three members.

This is simply not true and defamatory. I've been on this forum since it was created (under a different username prior to 06). I've been talking about the same issues since that time. Well, except for back when the evil empire was one of the primary topics here.

Derailing a thread is one thing. Blatant defamation and slander are something entirely else.

 

[Swattie87]

And I figure if the brook trout truthers and troublemakers keep making noise, I’ll start spot burning all their blue lines 😂.

I like this idea. For each derailment, one “allopatric” Gemmie stream shall be outed, by name, with GPS coordinates to the best parking opportunities closest to the hottest honey holes. I also suggest we include one Gemmie recipe to go along with each stream that is outed. This way the guys looking for new places to score their limits can try some new culinary ideas too. Gemmie fries get old after a while.

In all seriousness, the Native vs. Invasive Trout species discussion, and how to best manage it, is a legitimate conversation for a FFing forum. It has its place. It’s just that that place is not in every thread about Redbreast Sunfish, or what fly patterns work best in the Summer on limestone springs, or what rod action is best for streamer fishing, or what kind of sausage you put in your gumbo, or why the Steelers wide receivers all act like four year olds, or whatever. (These are not actual examples, though some very well may be. I’m just illustrating a point.) That was (is?) the issue most folks were bothered by. You couldn’t avoid it, even if you tried, because it was occurring in every thread. I don’t think this was necessarily deliberate, or part of some kind of “master plan”, but it definitely was happening, intentional or not. For me, it’s a lack of respect deal. If someone takes the time and effort to make a post about tips for drop shot nymphing, and helping folks with that style of FFing, it shouldn’t get turned into a Brookie vs. Brownie debate. Yeah, it’s a forum, and threads get derailed sometimes, it happens. Again, the issue here was it was happening in nearly every thread, over the same or very similar content, by the same or very similar handful of posters. And there’s definitely been a negative reaction by the forum as a whole. Good posters have left, and not come back. I took 3 months off, and waited for things to cool down. And they have, which is good.

I think, if the native fish folks can respect the forum and its members by keeping those kinds of conversations to threads intended for those kind of conversations, there wouldn’t be an issue. And, as a byproduct, I think you’d see a more productive and constructive response from the forum to those discussions.

In the event it continues to be an issue however, I’ll go ahead now and nominate krayfish as “Special Master” for determining when a “derailment” has occurred and the outing of a Gemmie blue line (with accompanying recipe) is warranted.😜

 

[silverfox]

I like this idea. For each derailment, one “allopatric” Gemmie stream shall be outed, by name, with GPS coordinates to the best parking opportunities closest to the hottest honey holes. I also suggest we include one Gemmie recipe to go along with each stream that is outed. This way the guys looking for new places to score their limits can try some new culinary ideas too. Gemmie fries get old after a while.

In all seriousness, the Native vs. Invasive Trout species discussion, and how to best manage it, is a legitimate conversation for a FFing forum. It has its place. It’s just that that place is not in every thread about Redbreast Sunfish, or what fly patterns work best in the Summer on limestone springs, or what rod action is best for streamer fishing, or what kind of sausage you put in your gumbo, or why the Steelers wide receivers all act like four year olds, or whatever. That was (is?) the issue most folks were bothered by. You couldn’t avoid it, even if you tried, because it was occurring in every thread. I don’t think this was necessarily deliberate, or part of some kind of “master plan”, but it definitely was happening, intentional or not. For me, it’s a lack of respect deal. If someone takes the time and effort to make a post about tips for drop shot nymphing, and helping folks with that style of FFing, it shouldn’t get turned into a Brookie vs. Brownie debate. Yeah, it’s a forum, and threads get derailed sometimes, it happens. Again, the issue here was it was happening in nearly every thread, over the same or very similar content, by the same or very similar handful of posters. And there’s definitely been a negative reaction by the forum as a whole. Good posters have left, and not come back. I took 3 months off, and waited for things to cool down. And they have, which is good.

I think, if the native fish folks can respect the forum and its members by keeping those kinds of conversations to threads intended for those kind of conversations, there wouldn’t be an issue. And, as a byproduct, I think you’d see a more productive and constructive response from the forum to those discussions.

In the event it continues to be an issue however, I’ll go ahead now and nominate krayfish as “Special Master” for determining when a “derailment” has occurred and the outing of a Gemmie blue line (with accompanying recipe) is warranted.😜

Sure, and I'll go tit-for-tat with that one. I've got enough "secret" trophy brown trout streams, GIS data, and mapping skills to spot burn every trutta honey hole in the state and the will to publish books or websites to get the word out there. Let's just publish every last wild trout stream in the state out of spite.

I agree on the other points. I'd just say that it goes both ways. If someone posts a thread about something in the conservation forum, folks could move on instead of slinging mud or trolling. Heck, derail it if ya want to. It's the name calling like a bunch of kids that's unacceptable to me. Calling someone the "scum of the earth" shouldn't be tolerated.

 

[Swattie87]

Sure, and I'll go tit-for-tat with that one. I've got enough "secret" trophy brown trout streams, GIS data, and mapping skills to spot burn every trutta honey hole in the state and the will to publish books or websites to get the word out there. Let's just publish every last wild trout stream in the state out of spite.

I agree on the other points. I'd just say that it goes both ways. If someone posts a thread about something in the conservation forum, folks could move on instead of slinging mud or trolling. Heck, derail it if ya want to. It's the name calling like a bunch of kids that's unacceptable to me. Calling someone the "scum of the earth" shouldn't be tolerated.

I was joking, and I know you are too. But yeah, we could collectively probably write a pretty good spot burning book. (For all PA Trout species, native or invasive.)

Agree cover to cover on the second paragraph. The respect needs to go both ways. If these discussions are kept to threads intended for them by the folks advocating for native fish management, then any retaliatory trolling or derailment is equally as disrespectful IMO, and should be called out as such.

 

[DaveKile]

I don't mean to be critical here, but I think the thing that went unnoticed by owner Dave Kile, the moderators, and probably all but one of the members here, is that the main perp and his sidekick perp, for nearly the last two years, were only using this website to advertise and increase the membership in their organization. A quick peruse of the Pennsylvania Chapter of the National Fish Coalition website reveals that their membership has jumped a whopping fifty percent -- that's 50% -- in just under two years! That's right, they went from having two members to having three members.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. I do know I missed much of the issue here for a while and apologize to the whole forum for letting this get to where it is right now.

Honestly, I don't read a lot of the posts. Too many for me to get to on a daily basis lately and unless I see specific and deliberate rules violations, some issues can get by me. Those are just excuses, because I need to take a better lead on this kind of situation and will do so.

We have done a pretty good job at the specific attacks on individuals. (everyone please tell if I'm wrong on this assumption too?) Derailed or hijacked threads has been a long and common issue in forums. I'm guilty myself of having conversations to trail into different directions. In general those kind of things are a natural course of a topic. What we have had going on is much different and I see that now.

@silverfox since you responded to the Pennsylvania Chapter of the National Fish Coalition, can you explain to me more of what is going on here because I would really like to know what is up with this organization, who on this site is involved and what is the agenda?

 

[troutbert]

I don't mean to be critical here, but I think the thing that went unnoticed by owner Dave Kile, the moderators, and probably all but one of the members here, is that the main perp and his sidekick perp, for nearly the last two years, were only using this website to advertise and increase the membership in their organization. A quick peruse of the Pennsylvania Chapter of the National Fish Coalition website reveals that their membership has jumped...

They rarely mentioned the Native Fish Coalition or posted its website link:
https://nativefishcoalition.org/

 

[DaveKile]

They rarely mentioned the Native Fish Coalition or posted its website link:
https://nativefishcoalition.org/

I want to hear from them.

 

[FrankTroutAngler]

Guys, guys, guys. Lighten up! My post was totally tongue-in-cheek. I was hoping to get a laugh or two.

For the record, as many of you know I'm a non-fly angler. However, I enjoy reading some of the stuff on this site and have actually learned a few things. I think the mods do a very good job. I think this site has done a lot to enhance fly fishing in Pennsylvania, and even though I don't fly fish, I recognize this as a good thing.

 

[Swattie87]

I’ve been a member since 2011 or 2012 or so. In that time there’s been two more “major” issues I’ve seen the forum have to deal with. The rest have just been isolated to an individual poster or thread, and were relatively transient in nature. Normal online forum type stuff. The two broader issues were/are:

1. Spot Burning. I think that was handled pretty well. You had the same group of folks waiting with pitchforks any time someone (usually a relatively new, excited FFer) mentioned a stream name. One small suburban Philadelphia limestone influenced wild Brown Trout stream, in particular. It got to the point where it seemed like guys were just waiting for someone to post a stream name so they could tee them up. It wasn’t fun, and led to a lot of new FFers being turned off. The tone was set (and enforced) by the moderators, and the issue quickly resolved itself. If you choose to post a stream name, that’s ok. If you choose not to post a stream name, that’s ok. In neither scenario should you be chastised for it.

2. The scenario we are faced with now. I think overall, the board reaction has been more negative this time. Though that may just be through the lens of passing time also. I don’t know. The answer this time is easy. Talk about native vs. invasive management in threads allocated for its discussion, and BOTH sides respect that. If you don’t want to read or talk about that subject, just don’t click on those threads and definitely don’t go looking for trouble in them. If you do want to talk about those topics, just don’t do it in the thread where everyone is happily talking about the Spring hatches on Penns, or whatever. And outside of the conservation/management based threads, lose the inflammatory “invasive” rhetoric every time Brown Trout are mentioned. (I know it’s factual, and not intended to be inflammatory, but right or wrong, it is perceived that way and serves as the spark for the fire. That’s obvious at this point.) There’s too much of a knowledge base on this forum (on both sides of the native/invasive debate) to be losing posters over not respecting one another’s opinions and differences.

Edit: 3. Politics in the OT forum. I forgot about that. But not gonna talk about it, haha. Place is definitely better without it.

 

[Bamboozle]

As an aggressive naturally combative individual who likes to throw M-80's into crowded areas on occasion, I use the ignore button and generally stay far away from the Conservation page for several reasons...

...most them center around the fact I don't expend a whole lot time of time caring about such issues that always seem to have more bark then bite.

But more importantly because I'm a fisherman on a fishing website, I'm interested in reading and hopefully contributing worthwhile information about fishing and fishing related topics...

....not politics!!

Carry on.

 

[McSneek]

I have the two primary culprits on ignore but don’t always log in when I visit the site so I still see a lot of their postings. Also ignoring one poster means you may miss out on good content posted by others in the same thread. I think the constant use of “invasive” is meant to demean anyone who fishes for something other than a native fish. If I ever learn that either of these posters is on the board of my local TU chapter or any other conservation organization I might join I would leave that organization immediately. That’s how much I‘ve come to despise their constant thread highjacking and holier than thou stance on native fish.

 

[silverfox]

I don't disagree with what you are saying. I do know I missed much of the issue here for a while and apologize to the whole forum for letting this get to where it is right now.

Honestly, I don't read a lot of the posts. Too many for me to get to on a daily basis lately and unless I see specific and deliberate rules violations, some issues can get by me. Those are just excuses, because I need to take a better lead on this kind of situation and will do so.

We have done a pretty good job at the specific attacks on individuals. (everyone please tell if I'm wrong on this assumption too?) Derailed or hijacked threads has been a long and common issue in forums. I'm guilty myself of having conversations to trail into different directions. In general those kind of things are a natural course of a topic. What we have had going on is much different and I see that now.

@silverfox since you responded to the Pennsylvania Chapter of the National Fish Coalition, can you explain to me more of what is going on here because I would really like to know what is up with this organization, who on this site is involved and what is the agenda?

I've avoided even mentioning the name for this very reason, and I'm not about to start speaking on behalf of something when I don't have the right to. The only reason it's come up is because other people have suggested there's something nefarious going on. I can assure you there's not.

What you see is that several people feel the same way about something, and some may have joined organizations that share that perspective. That's all. Part of that is because for a long time on this forum people suggested to me that people who share my opinions should form or join an organization so that we might have a better chance of petitioning PFBC.

I've been a member of TU for about the past 20 years. Should we associate TU here with no evidence, as well? I don't appreciate being called out personally on this stuff dating back to the first few people who felt it was fine to call me out by my name here. Frankly, it's a bit surprising to see such alarm over derailment vs. lying, accusing members of things with zero evidence, personal insults, and "doxing" forum members. I'm curious if the outrage would be the other way around if the tables were turned.

 

[caddisflyer]

They rarely mentioned the Native Fish Coalition or posted its website link:
https://nativefishcoalition.org/

Guys, guys, guys. Lighten up! My post was totally tongue-in-cheek. I was hoping to get a laugh or two.

For the record, as many of you know I'm a non-fly angler. However, I enjoy reading some of the stuff on this site and have actually learned a few things. I think the mods do a very good job. I think this site has done a lot to enhance fly fishing in Pennsylvania, and even though I don't fly fish, I recognize this as a good thing.

I have always enjoyed the Frank the trout angler conversations even when things got heated.

 

[jifigz]

Here is my attempt at a terse overview of the situation on PA Flyfish for the last year or two.

1) Thread derailment is inevitable. This represents the natural flow of conversations. Generally, thread derailments are beneficial because they bring new information to the thread and keep things fresh. If you read them from start to finish, there is usually much knowledge to be gained from the thread and you start to see valuable nearby or closely related topic discussed.

2) The thread derailments as of late are obnoxious, annoying, and ridiculous. Swattie hit the nail on the head. Every thread turned into the same exact thing. And I mean that literally, it was the same exact thing. It was the same quoting of the study of the Smeal College of Business, the same hostility, the same jabs at incompetent agencies and at closed minded ignoramuses, etc. It was impossible to avoid, and, just my opinion here, plain out was ruining the forum. I, personally, was extremely sick of it.

Here is the kicker, and we all already know this, many forum members are in agreement with said agendas. Protecting brookies, not stocking over them, etc. It was nauseating how every thread turned into the same stale crap.

Silverfox, you have been a forum member far longer than I have. I think you have great intentions, I like your website, and obviously you and I share much common interest. I also think that you have always brought good and thorough information to the conversations and, at times when it was necessary, done an excellent job playing "the devil's advocate."

The fighting or bickering or whatever recently was a two-way street. It wasn't only the native fish coalition people's fault. Heck, the majority of the time it didn't even make sense. We are all mostly on the same side. That was the defeating part about it all. Argue, argue, argue, but in essence we all agree with each other.

 

[wildtrout2]

I have always enjoyed the Frank the trout angler conversations even when things got heated.

Me too. Frank is a very successful wild trout fisherman, regardless of him being a spin fisherman. It's all good. I do respect his knowledge as well.

 

[CRB]

'

I think the constant use of “invasive” is meant to demean anyone who fishes for something other than a native fish. If I ever learn that either of these posters is on the board of my local TU chapter or any other conservation organization I might join I would leave that organization immediately. That’s how much I‘ve come to despise their constant thread highjacking and holier than thou stance on native fish.

Agree

I don't mind reading posts on native/wild trout. It is educational.
I don't like the aggressive words, constantly bashing the agencies, organizations or people to push The Native Fish Collation agenda this site.

In my opinion it screams non inclusion and is hostile.
People have different views and opinions that should be respected.

 

[ryansheehan]

Exactly this ^^^^^^ there is so much good information on this site, just don't click on post that have gone off the rails. Now where's the brisket and crawfish pattern posts?

The problem is there's alot of good information in between the reposted information. Honestly if I just ignored every thread that devolves in to brook vs brown I'm not sure I would use the site like I do. If I were a dry fly purist and any mention of nymphs I hopped on the thread and hijacked it into nymphs are horrible, it would not be tolerated.

There is a time and place for all discussions but they need to be somewhat on topic. It's one thing for a thread to change naturally into a topic that is not completely saturated on this site. It's another thing to continually hijack a thread with the same information from the previous thread that was hopped on.

I've learned alot from the brookie guys and I'm truly appreciative of all that information. I'm a better educated angler for the information you've posted. You guys are passionate and I'm sure we could have a great time on the stream together. I don't think it's an unreasonable request to keep that information in close to the right area.