New Rulemaking Proposal PFBC (Pinners in the FFO Areas)

[JackM]

To be a fly angler you must:

Wear drab colors;
Have breathable waders;
Have a vest or chestbox, pack or slinger;
Use flies;
Cast a line, not a weight;
Feel superior, because you are.

 

[troutbert]

McSneek wrote:

Maurice wrote:
Why was the language Centerpin used to justify a Regulation Proposal Change that by its very definition not apply to the regulation?
Really someone help me to understand this...

“The Commission also proposes that the reference to “fly line with a maximum of 18 feet in leader material or monofilament line attached” be removed to eliminate a gray area regarding center-pinning techniques, which is becoming a popular technique to fish nymphs and utilizes a much longer leader.”

I think this statement indicates that they don't know what center-pinning is.

It sounds like they are thinking that the term center pinning refers to the Euro-nymphing technique of using a long leader, fished with fly gear.

They probably heard of the technique of using a long leader. And they heard about this new thing called center pinning. And thought that these are the same thing.

 

[foxtrapper1972]

Fishing tackle manufacturers could be behind it all. Just like the crossbow thing in archery hunting. New fangled methods and laws create a boom in sales.
It's not flyfishing but the set up looks kinda like a fly set up. I guess that's good enough for the PAFC.

 

[Maurice]

troutbert wrote:

McSneek wrote:

Maurice wrote:
Why was the language Centerpin used to justify a Regulation Proposal Change that by its very definition not apply to the regulation?
Really someone help me to understand this...

“The Commission also proposes that the reference to “fly line with a maximum of 18 feet in leader material or monofilament line attached” be removed to eliminate a gray area regarding center-pinning techniques, which is becoming a popular technique to fish nymphs and utilizes a much longer leader.”

I think this statement indicates that they don't know what center-pinning is.

It sounds like they are thinking that the term center pinning refers to the Euro-nymphing technique of using a long leader, fished with fly gear.

They probably heard of the technique of using a long leader. And they heard about this new thing called center pinning. And thought that these are the same thing.

TB,

I agree, but don't you think if they made that mistake, and saw this discussion, which I am sure they have, they would either pop in here and clarify or change the proposal?

To remove the word flyline from the regs is ludicrous.

To continue to propose a reg change that is inaccurate when informed of the error would be irresponsible and unprofessional.

I think they are serious.

Comment period begins Saturday.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

I highly recommend everyone comment on this proposal when the comment period begins.

 

[troutbert]

I think they should keep the language mostly as is, including the reference to flyline with 18 foot leader.

The existing regs has this sentence: "Spinning, spincast and casting rods and reels are prohibited."

Just add "center pinning" to that, and you're done.

 

[FarmerDave]

McSneek wrote:

streamerguy wrote:
Who knows what the PFBC will do next. I can't wait to find out. Maybe they'll allow spear fishing for lightening trout??

A lot of comments on this board about just handing having the PFBC hand out trout directly from the stocking truck but I swear it's coming to that some day.

I've often said they should stop stocking trout and just open up the hatcheries and charge admission. Think of the money they could save, and make.

 

[FarmerDave]

tomitrout wrote:

300 yd drifts starting

Wow, never been to the Salmon River, but it must be freaking hudge! Only time I get something anywhere close to an almost quarter mile long drift is when I'm floating in a boat.

Oh come on Timi, 300 yards is a little over 1/6 of a mile. That's nothing. A 440 yards drift? Now that would be something. :lol:

 

[OldLefty]

We can speculate about what the commissioners think all we want. I do believe, however, that we have a majority of commissioners who do not have a favorable opinion about "the fringe fanatical fly fisher." That would be perceived to include anyone who values fly fishing as most of us do. Unfortunately, there are a few of our number who "spoil the whole pot," so to speak.

I believe that to form a crack in the fly fishing regs. makes it easy to bring it all down. It would be good to know how each commissioner feels about the FFO regs. I wonder how many of us have queried your commissioner about this? This is the best way of knowing their motives.

It would be fairly easy to surmise that the direction they're going is to allow all tackle in special regs. stream sections. But then, I cannot understand, for the life of me, why we have all tackle C&R regs. on an artificial (no wild trout, only hatchery trout) trout fishery. I just can't figure this one out.

 

[FarmerDave]

Mike wrote:

The concerns that I have read here seem primarily to be 1) social concerns that deal with inconsiderate behavior, 2) the technical definition of fly angling, and 3) a concern about landowner reaction. If you have these concerns, then express them to the Commission. As I said previously, I am only trying to educate myself on the topic.

4) Center-pinners smell bad.

 

[FarmerDave]

JackM wrote:
Popeye says I mean what I say and I say what I means.

No, that was [d]Ted Cruz[/d] Dr. Seuss and it goes like this. "I meant what I said, and I said what I meant."

 

[Chaz]

FarmerDave wrote:

JackM wrote:
Popeye says I mean what I say and I say what I means.

No, that was [d]Ted Cruz[/d] Dr. Seuss and it goes like this. "I meant what I said, and I said what I meant."

Dave, It think Popeye said it at least once in every cartoon.

 

[Chaz]

pcray1231 wrote:

What empirical data represents this "shift" in popularity of Centerpin fishing that would justify its use in the language? Was this some sort of Creel Survey question? Did people write in about it?

Really someone help me to understand this...

I don't know, but my guess would be that some centerpin guys wondered if it'd be alright if they ran some nymphs below an indicator in an FFO area. Afterall, it's the same thing the fly guys are doing in those locations.

And, by our definitions here, the centerpin is not fly fishing. But nor is what the fly guys are doing....

Apparently I've been center pinning all my fly fishing life; by drifting flies into places where you simply cannot perform the usual FFO cast into a spot, like a sweeper, or into the head of a pool blocked by overhanging branches. Something like this is done by me on relatively un-fished reaches of streams in fairly remote places. I'm not justifying the change, but I can see the argument, but still believe center pinning is not fly-fishing mostly because any terminal tackle can be used and the amount of weight involved.

 

[FarmerDave]

I do fly fish almost exclusively when fishing for trout, but I very rarely fish in FFO only waters. I at least do not seek them out.

I am however an all tackle angler and been known to pick up an ultralight from time to time.

So consider this more serious post as about as unbiased as it gets on the subject. I really don't care if Center Pin is allowed in FFOs because I don't consciously seek those out to fish in. Special regs areas are for "special people."

Hey, I did say more serious, not completely serious.;-)

I haven't done the center pin thing, but I know what it is and have nothig against it. I just feel it is too easy. It is the same concept as using bait or flies on ultralight spinning gear only much longer. And Pat, I don't need a long explanation on how the tackle differs. I'm talking concept.

I have nothing against center pin. Next time I need a new spinning rod, I may get center pin instead if I intend to use it for bait in streams. But if I need new fly gear, I'm getting fly gear.

In response to Maurice, the inclusion of center pin in the proposal wording is baffling to me as well.

Here are a few questions for everyone to answer for themselves.

1. Why do you fly fish?

For me it is not a religious experience and had nothing to do with a movie or a fad. It is still fishing, and fishing gear does not make the angler. I often chose fly fishing over other gear because I find it more challenging and enjoyable, especially for trout.

Although I know in most cases I could catch more fish with spinning gear (or center pin), I still prefer fly fishing.

Any of you that argue you can catch more fish while fly fishing are only kidding yourself. In most cased you can't, provided you know what you are doing with spinning or center pin.

Next question.

2. Why does thee PF&BC have FFOs?

My serious answer would be tradition. I have a lot of less serious answers as well, but won't go there in this response.

3. Why does the fish commission not allow spinning gear in FFOs?

My answer would be, it's not the traditional art of fly fishing.

When nymph fishing, I can cast just as far with ultralight spinning equipment using the same terminal tackle as I would with a fly rod. Now, I have never Czech nymphed, or used a french tickler. Not that there is anything wrong with those, I just don't feel a need. Again, I said more serious, not completely serious. 18 foot leader not enough? Come on?!? You might as well be using spinning gear or center pin.

A few had argued the reason could be to allow newer technology. News flash. Spinning gear is newer than fly fishing, too. So we skip over spinning gear and go right to center pin because the equipment looks like fly gear?

Baffling.

Either get rid of it or leave it alone.

Part of this could be enforcement. From a distance, maybe it is hard for some enforcement officers to tell the difference from their truck between fly equipment with large arbor, and center pin. Aint that what those company issued binoculars are for?

However, if that is the case, here's a compromise. Let people use their center pin gear, but they must use a fly line at least as their running line and limit their "leader" length to 18 feet. It would be similar to some of these newer nymphing techniques and I'd imagine using a very light fly line would still spool out nearly as well. Maybe not as well, but somewhat functional. IMO, it isn't about using easiest methods.

 

[FarmerDave]

Chaz wrote:

FarmerDave wrote:

JackM wrote:
Popeye says I mean what I say and I say what I means.

No, that was [d]Ted Cruz[/d] Dr. Seuss and it goes like this. "I meant what I said, and I said what I meant."

Dave, It think Popeye said it at least once in every cartoon.

He would say: "I yam what I yam, and that's all that I yam."

Come on Chaz, I was joking. It was a shot at the right and left.

He'd also say: "That's all I can stands and can stands no more," just before kicking butt. Popeye I mean, not Ted Cruz.

 

[Maurice]

FarmerDave wrote:

Chaz wrote:

FarmerDave wrote:

JackM wrote:
Popeye says I mean what I say and I say what I means.

No, that was [d]Ted Cruz[/d] Dr. Seuss and it goes like this. "I meant what I said, and I said what I meant."

Dave, It think Popeye said it at least once in every cartoon.

He would say: "I yam what I yam, and that's all that I yam."

Come on Chaz, I was joking. It was a shot at the right and left.

He'd also say: "That's all I can stands and can stands no more," just before kicking butt. Popeye I mean, not Ted Cruz.

This isn't the OT forum... Please return to your seat.

 

[FarmerDave]

Not sure I can even blame that one on Jack, so I'll apologize. But at least it was bipartisan.;-)

Sorry,

OK, back to the topic.

Where does the PF&BC stand when it comes to using [d]crappie poles[/d] tenkara in FFOs.

 

[troutbert]

I doubt if they would add any language about center pinning to the regs.

-------------------------------------------
"The Commission also proposes that the reference to “flyline with a maximum of 18 feet in leader material or monofilament line attached” be removed to eliminate a gray area regarding center-pinning techniques, which is becoming a popular technique to fish nymphs and utilizes a much longer leader.
---------------------------------------

So, they would remove this language: "“flyline with a maximum of 18 feet in leader material or monofilament line attached.”

But add nothing to that.

They seem to think that center pinning means nymphing with a long leader.

 

[tomitrout]

2. Why does thee PF&BC have FFOs?

My serious answer would be tradition. I have a lot of less serious answers as well, but won't go there in this response.

Your serious answer is pretty much the correct one, from page 16 of this document:

http://fishandboat.com/pafish/trout/trout_plan/history.pdf

Trout in Pennsylvania were also regulated using conservation or “special regulations” as early as 1934 when “Fisherman’s Paradise” was established. The “Paradise” was the first specially regulated stretch of stream in the nation. The regulations included: flyfishing only using a single barbless hook, and catch-and-release fishing, except that one trophy fish per day was allowed to be harvested. This concept was touted as Fish-for-Fun, which allowed for high catch rates for trout and still allow the angler to harvest a trophy-size trout. Many of the regulations developed in the future were based on the initial ideas of the
“Paradise.”

By the late 1950s and early 1960s, 26 streams, totaling 81 miles, had fly-fishing-only regulations with harvest of six trout nine inches or longer permitted per day. An additional three streams had fly-only, fish-for-fun special regulation areas established totaling 8.6 miles. These regulations were designed to acknowledge and maintain the history of fly fishing in Pennsylvania.

And I'll add that now we're down to 68.6 miles of FFO regulated waters, if my math is correct. That's a measely 68.6miles out of 86,000 miles of trout streams. (The 86k figure is from the visitpa.com site, qwik Google search).

Pretty effin' ridiculous that they want to furthur water down these special stretches of water. PA has an amazing heritage and pioneering history in the sport of fly fishing, it's a shame that it's no longer appreciated like it once was.

 

[FarmerDave]

Tomi,

That is what I thought, which is why the proposal doesn't make sense to me.

Either they honestly think Center Pin is just another form of flyfishing, or they are trying to eventually do away with FFOs.

It's another form of fishing, not fly fishing.