New Rulemaking Proposal PFBC (Pinners in the FFO Areas)

[streamerguy]

Not from what I've seen. Compare the rigs of a pinner and a spinning guy(with a long, "fly rod-like" noodle rod meant for float fishing). The rigs are exactly the same. Line, bobber, split shot, etc.

You're still casting the weight of your rig. So typically you're using a bigger/heavier float than fly fishing "strike indicators" and you may also be using more split shot when pinning/spin fishing than fly fishing.

Sure, the concept(float, split shot, nymph) is the same. You can use the same technique on all 3 setups. But center pinning is a LOT more similar to spin fishing than fly fishing.

 

[streamerguy]

So, if we're looking at it that way, the only difference between the 3 setups(besides the reel) is the line.

Center pinning: mono(leader optional)
Spin fishing: mono(leader optional)
Fly fishing: fly line.....then you're leader/tippet

I guess the business end can be the same. Just needs to be heavier on spinning/pinning setups.

 

[jifigz]

I just read every single comment of these 6 pages that are already here and I admit as a lifelong and extremely addicted fisherman, I had never heard of center pinning. I then went and immediately watched YouTube videos on the topic. There is no doubt it would be an amazingly effective way to fish and, as someone who loves catching fish, I can understand why people would use this technique. Fly fishing is, without a doubt, my favorite way to fish as I find it to be the most fun. That said, it isn't the only kind of fishing I do. Depending on the species I'm after and the environment I'm searching for them in, I would be a fool to only use fly fishing equipment because at times other equipment will make it much, much easier to accomplish my goal.

I will without a doubt say that center pinning is not fly fishing and I do not think that the current regulations of the said areas should crumble and allow other types of fishing to occur. Center pinners shouldn't be hated, however, because there are plenty of places that are wide open and not crowded at all where they could employ this tactic if that is what they enjoy. Now to hog a stretch of crowded water and run a huge drift right in front of many others is a horrible thing to do. Just like littering, these kinds of actions speak more about a person's character and values than their fishing equipment. If a person that enjoys center pinning was to go to say, the Salmon River (which is an absolute madhouse and I will never return) then they should have the decency and thoughtfulness to know to leave that gear behind and use it another day.

In summary, it shouldn't be allowed in a FFO section. On a side note, I hate nothing more than litter.

 

[pcray1231]

I completely disagree. Lots of pinners use regular strike indicators. Many also use smallish stick type floats, much smaller than most spin guys.

With spin fishing, you have to cast to get the offering where you want it. To do that, you need weight. If you don't need a drag free drift, then you don't need a bobber, but then you need a lot of weight. Because if you are imparting drag you need a lot more weight to get the offering deep. If you want a drag free drift, then you pretty much have to use a float. You can get away with very little shot as long as you have a biggish bobber. You can't really use a tiny bobber because then you have to add shot to make the cast, and it'll sink the bobber.

With fly fishing, you don't need the weight to cast, as the weight is in the line. You can simultaneously use a very small float and very little weight.

With pinning, they don't really cast at all! Most do give it a little flip, but some just stand in the riffle above. The current gives you the distance. So you can use very low amounts of weight, small floats, and get very long drag free drifts.

The ONLY reason to use slightly larger floats than fly fishermen is so that you can see them at much bigger distances.

 

[LetortAngler]

Wasn't exactly sure what pinning was until I came across this video. At first glance it looked like a fly fishing outfit but seems to be more of a sophisticated version of a spin rod I suppose.
Center Pinning 101
http://youtu.be/6NmQp65R-aw

 

[streamerguy]

pcray1231 wrote:

Really, the differences between pinning and fly fishing OR spin fishing are:

1. Totally different tackle than either.

A pinning rod is essentially the same as a spinning rod(designed for fishing something under a float). Both long, flimsy, "noodle rods."

pcray1231 wrote:

Really, the differences between pinning and fly fishing OR spin fishing are:

3. Drifts. With spinning gear, it's difficult to get a drag free drift at all, as you need lots of weight to cast, and thus if you don't use tons of shot you have to use a heavy bobber, which adds it's own drag. With pinning gear, you can get as long of a drag free drift as you want. 70 yards? No problem. The limit is generally how far you can see the float.

So I guess my question is:

Does the line come off a spining reel(with the bail open....and letting out line) just as easily as a pinning reel? That IMO is the only difference between pinning and spin fishing.

From what I've seen(mostly Lake Erie tribs) the weight of the rig(float, split shot, etc.) is the same on both pinning and spinning setups.

 

[streamerguy]

pcray1231 wrote:
Lots of pinners use regular strike indicators. Many also use smallish stick type floats, much smaller than most spin guys.

Well, ok. I haven't seen that yet. Most of the time I see pinners it's on bigger water(Rocky River, Chagrin, Grand, etc..) and casting is needed.....and their rigs are the same as the spin guys.

Because of the long rods(whether pinning or spinning) I guess you can get away with light offerings on small water with little/no casting. I guess the advantage of a pinning reel over a spinning reel would be how easily it lets line out.

 

[foxtrapper1972]

I'm going to get a center pin set up. I'll tie up some big Green Drake nymphs and emergers and when the crowds descend on Penns I'll get that baby out and drift my rig down through all of them. Fish on!

 

[pcray1231]

So, if we're looking at it that way, the only difference between the 3 setups(besides the reel) is the line.

Well, no, that'd be one of the only similarities, not differences.

i.e. pinners and spin guys use the same line.

Some fly fishermen do too. For instance, high stickers often don't have much, if any fly line off the tip anyway. "Euro" and "Czech" styles use ultra long leaders to make sure they don't. And I also see a number of fly rods without even having fly line on the reel, just mono.

The rods and reels are totally different between all 3. That said, why limit it to 3?

Under fly fishing:

You have regular fly gear, spey gear, etc.

Under spin fishing, you have spinning rods, bait casting rods, noodle rods, etc.

Pinners CAN use any of the above that'll take the reel, but generally use float rods. A float rod looks like a two handed spey on the reel end, and is more similar to a noodle rod farther up.

 

[streamerguy]

pcray1231 wrote:
With pinning, they don't really cast at all! Most do give it a little flip, but some just stand in the riffle above. The current gives you the distance. So you can use very low amounts of weight, small floats, and get very long drag free drifts.

This can be done with both pinning and spinning setups......if you have a long enough rod. I've seen guys use extremely long spinning rods for steelhead.

Again......the only difference here would be how easily the line comes off the reel(pinning vs. spinning with the bail open and you feeding it line). Rods......same. The business end......same(heavier if you're fishing bigger water and casting is needed, light if you just want to flip it out and let it drift).

 

[streamerguy]

pcray1231 wrote:

So, if we're looking at it that way, the only difference between the 3 setups(besides the reel) is the line.

Well, no, that'd be one of the only similarities, not differences.

i.e. pinners and spin guys use the same line.

Yeah. That's what I meant. Pinners/spinners......straight up mono. Fly......fly line. (wasn't including the straight mono czech nymphing guys)

 

[streamerguy]

Pinning-

Rod: Long, flimsy, noodle rod
Line: Straight up mono
Business end: Float, splitshot if needed, fly/bait/lure

Spinning-

Rod: Long, flimsy, noodle rod
Line: Straight up mono
Business end: Float, splitshot if needed, fly/bait/lure

Fly-

Rod: Fly rod(similar to noodle rods. long and flexible)
Line: Fly line, then leader/tippet
Business end: Float, splitshot if needed, fly/bait/lure

When spinning/pinning with long rods, your business end doesn't need to be heavy if you're just flipping it into the current and not casting. When casting farther distances, heavier floats, etc. are needed.

When fly fishing, you're casting the weight of the line.....so the business end doesn't need to be heavy. If fishing close distances, and casting isn't needed, sure.....you can just flip it out there with straight up mono.



All of this aside, the only thing I'm really curious about is how easily the line comes off a pinning reel compared to a spinning reel with the bail open and you letting out line.

 

[pcray1231]

Because of the long rods(whether pinning or spinning) I guess you can get away with light offerings on small water with little/no casting. I guess the advantage of a pinning reel over a spinning reel would be how easily it lets line out.

Yep. And in terms of why, well, us fly guys typically get better drag free drifts than spinning guys. Because any weight that's not needed to get depth imparts un-necessary drag.

Well, pinners get better (longer) drag free drifts than we do.

Again, my take is that it is NOT fly fishing. That said, I've never been one to place any method as "superior" over any other. You've got spey guys, the bass guys use bait casting outfits, guys with noodle rods running jigs. All just fine by me. Have fun.

But when it comes to special regulation, well, generally the goal is to kill less fish so that more remain for others to catch. You do that through C&R and restricting BAIT. It's just fine to use any gear you want, so long as you are using an artificial on the business end.

But pinning will add a complexity to stream etiquette in crowded situations, like Erie or opening day. Pinners are virtually unlimited in how much water they can cover by themselves. Hence the rule of "don't interfere with another fishermen" becomes a lot harder to follow when one fishermen is capable of covering 100 yards. Not only that, but the area they are covering is not in front of them, it's downstream of them. So if you walk on a pool and a guy is standing in a riffle 100 yards upstream, is that ENTIRE pool off limits to you? Is it really fair that this guy can expect more space than any other fisherman? And if you are in a spot, and he can get to those same fish from 100 yards away, you don't think a high number will try?

i.e. I'd almost support "no pinner" special regs for a very different purpose. Namely, on certain dates in certain places where high crowds are expected. Like, "no pinning on Saturday or Sunday for the first two weekends of the season", or "north of route 5 on the Erie tribs".

 

[pcray1231]

Spinning-

Rod: Long, flimsy, noodle rod.

Especially at Erie, a lot of spin guys do use long, noodly rods.

But all in all, your everyday spinning rod is shorter and stiffer than a fly rod, and your everyday float rod is longer and flimsier than a fly rod.

When spinning/pinning with long rods, your business end doesn't need to be heavy if you're just flipping it into the current and not casting. When casting farther distances, heavier floats, etc. are needed.

When fly fishing, you're casting the weight of the line.....so the business end doesn't need to be heavy. If fishing close distances, and casting isn't needed, sure.....you can just flip it out there with straight up mono.

Actually, an interesting irony there.

When pinning/spinning, the longer the cast, the more weight you need.

With fly gear, the SHORTER the cast, the more weight you need. Because you are utilizing less fly line.

Yes, the definition of fly fishing is utilizing the line as the weight. And pinning is not fly fishing. That said, a lot of people with fly gear are not technically fly fishing either then. With modern high stick/nymphing type tactics little if any fly line is even off the tip of the rod. They are essentially short-drift pinning, with or without the float.

As a side note, I always love watching the spinning rod guys use dry flies with a casting bubble. See it a lot on Penns.

Driving divisions between tackle is over-rated. There's all kinds of little twists on all gear these days that it's all a mish-mash. You've got guys with spinning rods fishing dry flies and swinging wets, guys with fly rods deep fishing nymphs on mono, other fly guys working poppers and musky lures, noodle rods, bait casting rods, spey rods, tenkara, centerpin. Regulation aimed at tackle is misguided.

IMO, regulation should stick to:

For fish survival:
1. What's on the end of the line? Choose stuff that is less likely to be taken deep to limit unintentional mortality.
2. C&R and bag limits to limit intentional harvest.

For crowded situations:
1. How much space per angler? Limit tactics that are capable of greatly expanding the effective range of a single angler beyond their immediate vicinity.

 

[streamerguy]

pcray1231 wrote:

Spinning-

Rod: Long, flimsy, noodle rod.

Especially at Erie, a lot of spin guys do use long, noodly rods.

But all in all, your everyday spinning rod is shorter and stiffer than a fly rod, and your everyday float rod is longer and flimsier than a fly rod.

Yep. For all intents and purposes of this thread, I'm referring to spinning guys fishing something under a float(whether that be a spawn sack or a nymph).......and trying to achieve a good drift. Hence, the longer rod. On the Erie tribs, or anywhere there are steelhead for that matter, spinning or pinning rods under 9ft are rare.

From my experiences, pinning and long spinning setups are equally rare on our inland rivers and streams. On the Erie tribs(at least on the bigger water, Ohio for example) pinning and long spinning rods are almost equally as common. The goal is to fish something under a float and achieve a nice, long, drag free drift. Neither are very common on our inland waterways.

 

[streamerguy]

pcray1231 wrote:

IMO, regulation should stick to:

For fish survival:
1. What's on the end of the line? Choose stuff that is less likely to be taken deep to limit unintentional mortality.
2. C&R and bag limits to limit intentional harvest.

^This

 

[pcray1231]

pinning and long spinning setups are equally rare on our inland rivers and streams.

Pinning is becoming more common on many inland streams. That said, it seems to be mostly waters "in range of" the tribs, i.e. I suspect it's the same guys. They fish regular trout too at other times of the year. They learned to pin on the tribs, found it effective, got more comfortable with it, and are expanding it out.

 

[streamerguy]

Yeah. I've only seen a pinner on our inland streams once(Neshannock DHALO) and saw maybe two or so fishing with longer spinning, "noodle rods" on our inland waters.

I too suspect they started using those techniques on the tribs, and are spreading it to our inland waters as well. Not a bad thing.....as long as stream etiquette is practiced(ie. don't hog a huge stretch of a crowded stream by making hero drifts). That goes for all types of fishing.

 

[streamerguy]

I'm not necessarily against allowing center pinning(other than the hero drifts) in FFO water.....as long as the business end isn't harmful to the fish(so....use flies, small jigs.....whatever). But why single out the spin guys, who are also able to fish nymphs and whatnot under a float with spinning rods.

Either keep these areas FFO, or change them to ALO. No in between.

 

[tomitrout]

So, if I'm to understand all of this....centerpinning is not flyfishing.

Now, does anybody wanna spend another seven pages parsing out whether or not Tenkara is flyfishing?