New Rulemaking Proposal PFBC (Pinners in the FFO Areas)

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Speak for yourselves.
I'm not ready to see FFO regs go away

 

[streamerguy]

tomitrout wrote:
So, if I'm to understand all of this....centerpinning is not flyfishing.

Bingo!

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
I'm not ready to see FFO regs go away

Me neither.

BUT if the PFBC wants to allow center pinning in FFO water, why not allow spin fishing as well? (with single hooks......ie. fish something artificial under a float like you would with a center pin. No trebles).

 

[moon1284]

The pinners on the pa Erie tribs must be different than the ones on the ny erie tribs. 90+ percent use the drennan type float and drift egg sacks or skein. I've seen this for close to 20 years. This is very popular in wny, the Canadians have made it more popular. They catch tons of fish. They keep a lot of fish for eggs (their bait). I have no problem with them keeping their fish. Not all pinners crowd people out and take super long drifts. I still hate the method and think there is very little skill involvEd...

 

[afishinado]

Cut off the everything on terminal end of any of the rigs and try to cast.....

The rig that can cast without any weight attached is a fly outfit.....all others are not.

I really have no issue with DH or CR ALO areas. But if there is a to be a section designated as fly-fishing only for some reason, it really should be for fly-fishing only.

The rule of a maximum of 18' of "fishing line" (leader) attached seemed reasonable....that's two rod lengths or so for most rods. Not hard to understand, and not hard to enforce.

If I were a WCO, I'd just walk along the bank and yell out to an angler, "Hey!...shorten up on that leader or I'll write-cha up!"....and move on.

 

[troutbert]

Do the manufacturers of center-pin gear describe it as flyfishing gear?

I don't think they do.

 

[Maurice]

Here is what is baffling to me about this whole fiasco.

Why did they use the term Centerpin. They could have used the term Czech nymphing and nobody woulda said boo.

I personally don't see any reason to change that restriction (18' leader). I mean think about it...if you are using a 9' rod and hold the fly in your hand at the reel the leader goes up to the tip-top and back down the rod to the reel and a couple times around. My judgement of leader length is based on my rod length usually. I know when I am using a 7.5'er and the leader gets up around 12' for dry fly fishin I know its too long when I see it almost back to the reel. But thats not the point....

I am curious as to their motivation of the use of the word more than anything. The regulation states:

...2. Fishing may be done with tackle which is limited to fly rods, fly reels and fly line " with a maximum of 18 feet of leader material or monofilament attached". Spinning, spincast or casting rods are prohibited.

So even if they eliminate the 18' leader rule the Pinning set up still don't work because they need fly line...a fly reel...and a fly rod. I guess if the Commish thinks a noodle rod is a fly rod and a pin reel is a fly reel the angler could just use the fly line as backing for the mono...and be within the regs.

Or could it be that they are toying with us...knowing the buttons to push? I mean you know they watch this site, Mike posts here, Arway just posted the other night...they read this...they gotta be having a good laugh about now.

I really think they need to be called to the carpet on this language thing. If they don't know the difference between a fly rod/reel set up and a centerpin set up. To use centerpinning as the reason to "lengthen the leader" rather than choosing a hugely popular method such as Czech nymphing would have been perfectly fine. I really have question their qualifications to be in charge of a fishing agency.

And if the change IS intended to be a radical shift in the regulation, why hide it down under lake and baits size limit changes using reference numbers rather than the regulation names?

So its either deviously calculated and deceptive or its just a plain old ignorant misguided mistake. Either way we cannot let it stand and deserve an explanation.

 

[pcray1231]

No, they don't. They don't describe it as spin fishing either, what I took issue with is some equating it to spin fishing.

It's a separate category all on it's own. Trying to equate it more with spinning gear than fly gear reeks of a superiority complex. I've never seen fly fishing as innately "superior" to spin fishing, and I guess I don't understand the mindset that leads to that. Spin fishing may tend to appeal to a less avid crowd because it's easier to get started with and master. But that's just sociological correlation. There's nothing about the rod, reel, and line that CAUSES litter, harming fish, rude behavior, etc. It's the person behind it.

Bait (which can be fished on any system), on the other hand, can tend to kill fish in the hands of the inexperienced, because if the hookset isn't immediate then fish have a tendency to swallow it rather than more typically spitting out an artificial.

As I said in my first post, pinning isn't fly fishing and thus not acceptable in a FFO section if you intend to continue to call it FFO. But I also said I wouldn't really have a problem with making FFO's into ALO. I'd be fine seeing FFO go away. Especially if it helps sell the creation of more ALO water to the public by not excluding anyone.

The purpose of special regs is to reduce harvest and mortality and thus create better sport fishing, and I believe that any artificial does that regardless of the type of rod and reel.

And where slightly more mortality can be tolerated, I also like AT C&R or AT Trophy Trout as well. By doing this, you are still excluding anglers who wish to harvest, and those tend to be the beginners who are also the same ones who are more likely to inadvertently kill fish with bait.

Basically, I'd LOVE to see more project water overall, but in exchange I'm fine with loosening tackle restrictions on that water.

 

[streamerguy]

pcray1231 wrote:
They don't describe it as spin fishing either, what I took issue with is some equating it to spin fishing.

It's a separate category all on it's own.

This seems to be the only thing we disagree with. I agree with the rest of your post

Here's a couple photos of center pin setups I pulled off of the internet. You can just as easily swap the center pin reel with a spinning reel and fish the same rig. Again, the only difference between the two rigs is how the line comes off of the reel. The rod, line, float, etc. can all be the same. Then you also got baitcasting reels and closed face push button reels. Every other part of the rig can be the same.

How much weight you have on the other end depends on if you're casting far distances or just "flipping it" into the water. I'm sure you can cast lighter offerings with a center pin setup IF the line does indeed come off of the reel better than a spinning reel with the bail open. The longer the rod, the shorter the casts.....regardless if you're using a center pin or spinning outfit. If you're just dapping it into the current, heck, you can use a fly reel if ya want. You'll have to manually peel line off of the reel if you want a longer drift....but it's doable.

You often see bright colored line on center pin setups, and the reason for that is to make it easier to see. It's still mono. I have a bright yellow line spooled up on my steelhead spinning rod setup(though I rarely use it since I fly fish mostly).

 

[troutbert]

pcray1231 wrote:
No, they don't. They don't describe it as spin fishing either, what I took issue with is some equating it to spin fishing.

My point is that the manufacturers of center pinning gear do not describe it as flyfishing gear.

But the PFBC is saying that it is.

Which reminds me of:

----------------------------------------
“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”
-------------------------------------

 

[Maurice]

Pat was your response #109 directed toward my post #108 or were you just continuing your yammering with Streamerguy?

 

[JackM]

Popeye says I mean what I say and I say what I means.

 

[pcray1231]

Here's a couple photos of center pin setups I pulled off of the internet. You can just as easily swap the center pin reel with a spinning reel and fish the same rig. Again, the only difference between the two rigs is how the line comes off of the reel. The rod, line, float, etc. can all be the same. Then you also got baitcasting reels and closed face push button reels. Every other part of the rig can be the same.

But you could just as easily substitute fly reel in that whole paragraph too.

And I have used fly reels on spinning rods, and vice versa!

What you CAN do is kind of beside the point, isn't it? Cause you can do whatever you want with whatever equipment you want (some will be more effective than others, but you still CAN).

The most typical (traditional) set up for each:

Spinning: Spinning reel on a 4-7 ft stiffish spinning rod.
Fly: Fly reel on a 6-10 ft soft fly rod.
Centerpin: Centerpin reel on a 9-13 ft very soft float rod.

Now, there are all kinds of exceptions for each. Some spinning guys use spinning reels on long soft noodle rods. Some fly guys run two handed spey outfits, and others forgo the reel entirely in favor of tenkara. There are rods made that are hybrids, and you can switch a fly reel and spinning reel as you wish. People develop lots of techniques that can be described as hybrids incorporating aspects of different disciplines.

And any of the above are perfectly capable of running some sort of an offering (bait, fly, lure), with or without split shot for weight, under a float of whatever dang size you want.

I will agree that with pinning and spinning, you need more weight if you want to cast further, and thus you'll need a bigger float to suspend that weight. You can just choose not to cast so far too. With fly gear, you can cast far without weight, as the weight is in the line. That is THE defining characteristic of fly fishing. Hence, pinning is not fly fishing. That said, lots of guys, me included, use methods with fly gear that should not really be called "fly fishing" by this definition, as the actual fly line doesn't even make it off the rod tip.

 

[BrookieChaser]

I will say I learned a fair amount about "pinning". When I fished for steelhead, years ago, I never seen a "pinning" setup used.

I saw a guy using a spey setup on Penns below Coburn one day.

 

[streamerguy]

pcray1231 wrote:

What you CAN do is kind of beside the point, isn't it? Cause you can do whatever you want with whatever equipment you want (some will be more effective than others, but you still CAN).

Yeah. I've seen someone using a fly line on a spinning setup. Regular spinning reel, 7ft rod, and fly line. If it's legal.....have at it!!

pcray1231 wrote:

The most typical (traditional) set up for each:

Spinning: Spinning reel on a 4-7 ft stiffish spinning rod.
Centerpin: Centerpin reel on a 9-13 ft very soft float rod.

Now, there are all kinds of exceptions for each. Some spinning guys use spinning reels on long soft noodle rods.

Sure, but in the areas where centerpin setups are very common(Great Lakes tribs, western steelhead and salmon rivers, etc.) typically the spinning guys use the same types of rods......and the same rigs. That's what I'm getting at. The only difference is the reel.

Sure, long spinning rods aren't very common on our inland streams......neither are center pin setups. Yet.

pcray1231 wrote:

I will agree that with pinning and spinning, you need more weight if you want to cast further, and thus you'll need a bigger float to suspend that weight. You can just choose not to cast so far too. With fly gear, you can cast far without weight, as the weight is in the line. That is THE defining characteristic of fly fishing. Hence, pinning is not fly fishing.

Exactly

Here is how I personally sum it up....

Conventional gear: Spinning reels, baitcasting reels, and sure....center pinning. You're using mono, fluoro, or braided line and you're generally casting the weight of your offering.

Fly gear: traditional single hand fly rods, two-handers, and sure...tenkara. Generally, you're casting the weight of your fly line.

Definitely lots of exceptions and variations.

Ok, I'm done lol. Good conversations though.....

 

[Maurice]

streamerguy wrote:

Ok, I'm done lol. Good conversations though.....

Super....now we can get back to the topic. (8 pages later)

Why was the language Centerpin used to justify a Regulation Proposal Change that by its very definition not apply to the regulation?

If the change is radical and suggests inclusion of Centerpin Gear. Why was the proposal hidden as Item 8 in a list of 9 other items and not mentioned by name but rather by the regulation number rather than having it be in a proposal of its own?

What empirical data represents this "shift" in popularity of Centerpin fishing that would justify its use in the language? Was this some sort of Creel Survey question? Did people write in about it?

Really someone help me to understand this...

 

[tomitrout]

Really someone help me to understand this...

Good luck trying to figure out the 'why' behind some of what PFBC does. I think I saw a crystal ball for sale down at the local antique store the other day, maybe we could consult it to answer your questions?

 

[pcray1231]

What empirical data represents this "shift" in popularity of Centerpin fishing that would justify its use in the language? Was this some sort of Creel Survey question? Did people write in about it?

Really someone help me to understand this...

I don't know, but my guess would be that some centerpin guys wondered if it'd be alright if they ran some nymphs below an indicator in an FFO area. Afterall, it's the same thing the fly guys are doing in those locations.

And, by our definitions here, the centerpin is not fly fishing. But nor is what the fly guys are doing....

 

[McSneek]

Maurice wrote:
Why was the language Centerpin used to justify a Regulation Proposal Change that by its very definition not apply to the regulation?
Really someone help me to understand this...

“The Commission also proposes that the reference to “fly line with a maximum of 18 feet in leader material or monofilament line attached” be removed to eliminate a gray area regarding center-pinning techniques, which is becoming a popular technique to fish nymphs and utilizes a much longer leader.”

Maurice - as I see it this statement means that the PFBC already deems it acceptable to use center pin gear in FFO only areas. The only thing they're really proposing is allowing leaders in excess of 18' in length.

I know the FFO regs say, "“Fishing shall be done with tackle which is limited to fly rods[,] and fly reels [and fly line with a maximum of 18 feet in leader material or monofilament line attached]. Spinning, spincast and casting rods and reels are prohibited.” but I think the fact they are on the record of clarifying this for the purpose of center pinning techniques - "a popular way to fish nymphs" that "utilizes a much longer leader" means they are OK with a dirty pinner running a drift from the Blue Rock hole on Muddy Creek all the way down to the wire as long as he or she has a GRHE or something similar on the business end.

 

[Maurice]

Oh I am such a dunce...the removal of the entire sentence means no flyline is necessary at all...just fly rods and fly reels. And centerpins are all that I guess...so I can take my centerpin out tomoro soong as my leader is only 18'...

So centerpin ing IS flyfishing...now I understand.l

 

[McSneek]

Maurice wrote:
Oh I am such a dunce...the removal of the entire sentence means no flyline is necessary at all...just fly rods and fly reels. And centerpins are all that I guess...so I can take my centerpin out tomorrow so long as my leader is only 18'...

So centerpinning IS flyfishing...now I understand.l

Yep - the new rule would state "Fishing shall be done with tackle which is limited to fly rods and fly reels. Spinning, spincast and casting rods and reels are prohibited."

That to me says they've already determined that center pinning = fly fishing as long as flies are used.

I don't think you're a dunce by the way but if I see you pinning away I may avoid you like the plague.