wgmiller
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Couldn't agree more. On all counts. There are numerous York County wild brown tribs right across the river. And I agree with your other observations as well.
Couldn't agree more. On all counts. There are numerous York County wild brown tribs right across the river. And I agree with your other observations as well.
Stenonema
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There are some dangerous assumptions here.
It is dangerous to assume that these trout are not unique or are just visiting because they followed the dinner bell and even more so to assume that they are stocked holdovers. If this be the case Then kill them all. No worries. Wipe them out and worry about it later. Our hatcheries are full of trout just like them across the country and when put into these same streams they will do the same things.
We keep making the same mistakes and repeating history. Something isn't special until it's gone and in all our wisdom we cannot bring it back. Would it not be wiser to keep it in the first place.
In conservation if we are going to error or make assumptions it should be on the side of caution.
In other words it should be easier to entertain the idea that we may be wrong now rather than later.
What path has genetic diversity taken in our hatcheries? Is the ability to adapt greatly hindered or even gone from our hatchery trout? When is it going to be considered special that a trout has adapted to a watershed well enough to grow to great size and reproduce on it's own.
It is dangerous to assume that these trout are not unique or are just visiting because they followed the dinner bell and even more so to assume that they are stocked holdovers. If this be the case Then kill them all. No worries. Wipe them out and worry about it later. Our hatcheries are full of trout just like them across the country and when put into these same streams they will do the same things.
We keep making the same mistakes and repeating history. Something isn't special until it's gone and in all our wisdom we cannot bring it back. Would it not be wiser to keep it in the first place.
In conservation if we are going to error or make assumptions it should be on the side of caution.
In other words it should be easier to entertain the idea that we may be wrong now rather than later.
What path has genetic diversity taken in our hatcheries? Is the ability to adapt greatly hindered or even gone from our hatchery trout? When is it going to be considered special that a trout has adapted to a watershed well enough to grow to great size and reproduce on it's own.
BrookieChaser
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“One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds. Much of the damage inflicted on land is quite invisible to laymen. An ecologist must either harden his shell and make believe that the consequences of science are none of his business, or he must be the doctor who sees the marks of death in a community that believes itself well and does not want to be told otherwise.”
- Aldo Leopold
- Aldo Leopold
foxtrapper1972
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Steno- Just curious how you would propose we protect them?
Advertising them on this forum might not necessarily get the desired results.
Advertising them on this forum might not necessarily get the desired results.
M
Mike
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I find the belief that they are or must be hatchery fish to be interesting. Given that rainbow trout are the primary species that are stocked by the PFBC in Lancaster and York County tribs to the river, one would think that hatchery rainbows would be outnumbering the hatchery browns when the fish move from one trib to another, yet all of the reporting here references brown trout. It is not as though the RT will not travel and enter river tribs; I once had a tagged RT reported to me from Fishing Creek, York Co that had been tagged earlier that year in Lycoming County.
Maurice
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@Mike,
Its pretty clear to me at least in the Southern York County watersheds that the holdover rate for rainbow trout is significantly less than that of stocked brown trout.
Rainbows are the selected species for fish culture and stocking for the F&BC because they grow larger under hatchery conditions. But their survival rate is lower over summer conditions.
When we fish in fall we catch very few rainbows and plenty of browns.
So it doesn't surprise me that these fish are browns.
Which brings up a very intriguing scenario whereby the F&BC raises a fast growing, feed (costly) intensive species that doesn't provide the optimum ROI for recreational fishing. (considering that the vast majority of anglers are practicing C&R. Hmmm.
Its pretty clear to me at least in the Southern York County watersheds that the holdover rate for rainbow trout is significantly less than that of stocked brown trout.
Rainbows are the selected species for fish culture and stocking for the F&BC because they grow larger under hatchery conditions. But their survival rate is lower over summer conditions.
When we fish in fall we catch very few rainbows and plenty of browns.
So it doesn't surprise me that these fish are browns.
Which brings up a very intriguing scenario whereby the F&BC raises a fast growing, feed (costly) intensive species that doesn't provide the optimum ROI for recreational fishing. (considering that the vast majority of anglers are practicing C&R. Hmmm.
T
tomitrout
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Really? Across the full spectrum of trout fisherfolk?
I kinda find that hard to believe.
M
Mike
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Well Maurice, we use adaptive management in the hatcheries too. RT were the darlings of the hatchery system five yrs ago, but now with the intensified amount of coldwater disease problems, a relatively new problem, Browns are on the cusp of getting more popular again. The rainbows grow well in the hatcheries but now the Browns survive better there ( the word as of about 3 months ago).
As for the BT vs RT in that Lanc Co stream, we did not even see any RT there in the summer. Additionally, none of the few hundred Browns that we handled in the drainage appeared to be stocked.
As for the BT vs RT in that Lanc Co stream, we did not even see any RT there in the summer. Additionally, none of the few hundred Browns that we handled in the drainage appeared to be stocked.
Alnitak
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So, I was traveling for a while and lost track of this thread. I was surprised to see it was still alive. Let me toss in a few other things here.
I've researched the river extensively and dug up some interesting data from a variety of reports. The water just isn't cold enough there for these fish in the summer. I think that they use it to migrate around, but its not where they would live most of the time. No, they live in the best spots in these smaller streams. What's different here is how many big ones are in this small area. Or maybe its not different--more on that in a bit.
As Mike has pointed out, a good forage base is key for these fish. That means a good circumneutral to basic water--think limestoners or similar. Another option is for large numbers of forage fish to be present--so the lower reaches of the larger streams on the Susky are good spots, too. So are spots where cold limestoners enter larger streams. There are a lot more spots like this than most people realize, and it often means fishing in areas that you wouldn't traditionally think of. I know of another stream in Lancaster County where you would never imagine trout, yet it also has produced some massive browns like this. Its also not stocked, but shares many of these characteristics.
Now, on to the preservation of fish like this. First, its wrong to assume that non fly-fishers are killing these fish. The majority of avid spin or bait fishermen I know about are catch and release too. Its also wrong to assume that locals don't know about fish like this or just because you don't see pictures posted online that they aren't being caught. There are just too many people in this area for any place to go unnoticed. I personally heard of this spot from three different people over the course of a year. All of them felt that it was relatively unknown, and yet clearly they all knew about it. I also randomly heard about it from a guy who saw me fishing in a different part of the county--a linesman repairing a power line.
I've fished there twice and both times ended up speaking with several locals. All of them know about the fish and all of them say they've been there for years. One older gentleman told me they've been there for decades. The locals all wanted to know that I was doing C&R and once they saw I was were actually happy to share all kinds of stories about the huge fish there. Its not just brown trout at this spot, either--there are VERY large bass. The forage base is there for these fish to feed and grow.
I don't want to get sucked into a spot-burning debate; its fruitless. I will say that there are more fish out there like this than people realize, although typically they are in deeper bigger waters and not easy to spot. Actually, later in the year when the water is higher and not as clear even these fish would be much harder to spot. I have seen fish this large now in at least a dozen streams in Lancaster and York Counties. The common factor is always how much forage base is available and how much holding habitat there is. Remember, most of the big guys are only out and feeding at night, so we don't ever even see them. Many of these streams are in very built up areas with lots of people around, so they manage to elude lots of fishing pressure (or more people practice C&R than is thought). I've even seen one right along a major road in an urban area that was over 24".
I shared the photo because we all love to fish here and we all love to see big beautiful fish (OK, most of us do). I don't typically hunt larger fish as I prefer to fish tiny streams with a little 6' 6" rod, far from any civilization. For me this was a rare catch and a memorable moment and I thought others would enjoy my sharing it. I'm glad its provoked some interesting discussion. I will say that its got me thinking about spending some more time this year trying to catch fish like this on a few other streams where I know they live.
Jeff
I've researched the river extensively and dug up some interesting data from a variety of reports. The water just isn't cold enough there for these fish in the summer. I think that they use it to migrate around, but its not where they would live most of the time. No, they live in the best spots in these smaller streams. What's different here is how many big ones are in this small area. Or maybe its not different--more on that in a bit.
As Mike has pointed out, a good forage base is key for these fish. That means a good circumneutral to basic water--think limestoners or similar. Another option is for large numbers of forage fish to be present--so the lower reaches of the larger streams on the Susky are good spots, too. So are spots where cold limestoners enter larger streams. There are a lot more spots like this than most people realize, and it often means fishing in areas that you wouldn't traditionally think of. I know of another stream in Lancaster County where you would never imagine trout, yet it also has produced some massive browns like this. Its also not stocked, but shares many of these characteristics.
Now, on to the preservation of fish like this. First, its wrong to assume that non fly-fishers are killing these fish. The majority of avid spin or bait fishermen I know about are catch and release too. Its also wrong to assume that locals don't know about fish like this or just because you don't see pictures posted online that they aren't being caught. There are just too many people in this area for any place to go unnoticed. I personally heard of this spot from three different people over the course of a year. All of them felt that it was relatively unknown, and yet clearly they all knew about it. I also randomly heard about it from a guy who saw me fishing in a different part of the county--a linesman repairing a power line.
I've fished there twice and both times ended up speaking with several locals. All of them know about the fish and all of them say they've been there for years. One older gentleman told me they've been there for decades. The locals all wanted to know that I was doing C&R and once they saw I was were actually happy to share all kinds of stories about the huge fish there. Its not just brown trout at this spot, either--there are VERY large bass. The forage base is there for these fish to feed and grow.
I don't want to get sucked into a spot-burning debate; its fruitless. I will say that there are more fish out there like this than people realize, although typically they are in deeper bigger waters and not easy to spot. Actually, later in the year when the water is higher and not as clear even these fish would be much harder to spot. I have seen fish this large now in at least a dozen streams in Lancaster and York Counties. The common factor is always how much forage base is available and how much holding habitat there is. Remember, most of the big guys are only out and feeding at night, so we don't ever even see them. Many of these streams are in very built up areas with lots of people around, so they manage to elude lots of fishing pressure (or more people practice C&R than is thought). I've even seen one right along a major road in an urban area that was over 24".
I shared the photo because we all love to fish here and we all love to see big beautiful fish (OK, most of us do). I don't typically hunt larger fish as I prefer to fish tiny streams with a little 6' 6" rod, far from any civilization. For me this was a rare catch and a memorable moment and I thought others would enjoy my sharing it. I'm glad its provoked some interesting discussion. I will say that its got me thinking about spending some more time this year trying to catch fish like this on a few other streams where I know they live.
Jeff
Stenonema
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Foxtrapper wrote:
Steno- Just curious how you would propose we protect them?
Do you still want me to answer this?
Steno- Just curious how you would propose we protect them?
Do you still want me to answer this?
foxtrapper1972
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Steno wrote-
"Do you still want me to answer this?"
Yes. Please share your thoughts.
"Do you still want me to answer this?"
Yes. Please share your thoughts.
Stenonema
Active member
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Alnitak, I hope that you and your pals have put the local watch dogs that came out to give you a sniff when you were fishing on your Christmas card list.
Sounds to me like you have them at least to some degree to thank for the fishing you are experiencing.
Sounds to me like you have them at least to some degree to thank for the fishing you are experiencing.
