My first toad

foxtrapper1972 wrote:
geebee-I am confused. You say this is at Fort Hunter. The guy in the video says he is at Port Deposit. That is in Maryland.
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that would make more sense.

but the web post that accompanied it, said the boat launch at fort hunter.

coin trick perhaps ?





 
Why is it not on the natural reproduction list?
 
Mike - I suspect I understand the nuts and bolts of what you're alluding to regarding why the fish are there in the Winter/early Spring from a forage standpoint, but since you already tee'd it up, would you mind hitting it down the fairway for us too and explaining it in full from a biologist's standpoint?

I don't think explaining the mechanism driving the migration of large fish into this stream will do any more to flush out its identity. I'd definitely enjoy reading your theory here, and possibly trying to apply it to other locations with similar setups.
 
I think what mike is trying to say is the fish are resident fish feeding on a forage base provided by the river into thier own stream. The fish are not migratory.

I have trouble believing this because after conversations with other posters, these fish were not always here. They suddenly appeared.
Also many southern lancaster county freestoners have this forage base but not the biomass of fish we see here.
Something's a miss.
 
I think fish do migrate from one tributary to another using the river. I don't really believe they are spending summers in the depths of the Susquehanna. It is unusual to find numbers of larger fish stacked in one of these tribs. I am wondering if these are stocked fish that are taking advantage of a nice amount of forage? Although the fish do have some "wild traits" they might just be holdovers. They certainly are not typical wild fish from this area.
 
salvelinusfontinalis wrote:

I have trouble believing this because after conversations with other posters, these fish were not always here. They suddenly appeared.
Also many southern lancaster county freestoners have this forage base but not the biomass of fish we see here.
Something's a miss.
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I agree - to get to that size, they need an exceptional forage base - of meat. whether they get that in the depths of the susky or another larger freestoner, those fish would have been noticed in season, caught and photographed and we'd all know about them - and they'd probably be fished out or poached.

the fact that they haven't, points to the fact that they are not there.

and i think if they were residents just feeding in their stream, then you would see large rainbows, bass and musky etc there too.

theres also the possibility that these are hatchery fished washed down over the dams in a flood and they are now trapped there...





 
I'll take a swing at what I think Mike is saying. The spawn will move larger fish out of the larger river systems, but generally, once the dance is done, they'll drop back down to the larger river system. However, if conditions are good, such as they find good habitat, or there is a good forage base, their time in the spawning stream may be extended. Typically, water temperatures, competition for food, water levels, or the lack of habitat will eventually push the larger fish out. But in some cases, a handful of fish will inevitably stay on a longer or even quasi-permanent basis.

Where tributaries are influenced by larger streams or rivers, there is often migration of baitfish into the smaller streams. As an example, I took this photo the other week from a small stream that holds some brown trout. The bottom quarter mile is readily accessible to bait fish and the bottom tenth mile or so is influenced by the larger stream system water levels. What this means is that any transient browns that move in will not have forage as the limiting factor on when they make the move back to the larger stream system. Apologies for the poor photo quality - the bottom is leaf detritus, but the middle of photo below the rock has hundreds of forage fish in it.

 
Can someone summarize these brown trout's movements through a full year?

When are they in the river and when are they in tributaries, and what the reasons for their moves from one to the other?

 
Really Nice Fish does that stream have any big pools.
 
troutbert wrote:
Can someone summarize these brown trout's movements through a full year?

When are they in the river and when are they in tributaries, and what the reasons for their moves from one to the other?
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this is all theory.

without regular, catching, netting or shocking, how would anyone know ?

I think Jeff, swattie, foxtrapper etc are literally the start of the knowledge base for these browns.

the stuff i've put forward is based on my experiences in Europe and MA, NH etc and reading, and some hunches.

salmonoid makes a good point about water levels - as we know trout need three things - food, cool water and cover. so if the water levels are low in spring, maybe that's what backs them out to the bigger river.

 
The stream the trout was caught on is a nursery stream. Shocking surveys would reveal many juvinile and fingerling trout if done most of the year. The months of Sept through fall and even into winter would reveal a different age class structure. These trout and trout like them to my knowledge have not been discussed in an open forum anywhere until recently here. I am not referring to trout that are migrating out of a lake but out of a large flowing system and into another. Stream surveys do not reveal these in studies and don't paint a picture because they are a moving target. How much they are misunderstood and overlooked is evidenced in many places including here. I find it funny that everyone wants to propose their theories and thoughts and try to neatly tie it up in ribbons in a box. Brown trout are quite possibly the most genetically diverse species on the planet. The trout that are utilizing this particular stream will not be exactly like the trout of another stream. What makes these trout so special and distinct is their adaptations to exploit different niches within the food chain in the watershed on a larger scale. Where they choose to spend their time and when is generated by the successes of previous generations.
You have found something very special here. My advice is be careful who you tell and how much attention you draw while fishing. Local people will pick up on it if they see the same car or fisherman there for a week straight.
Migrating fish commonly stack or school. I call it a staging pool. On the way up or on the way out they will stage in a pool (strength in numbers) and then when the time is right move out or up depending. Sometimes this pool will be over a mile up the smaller stream.
One person can destroy this for you. Temperature will be key to their initial movement to the nursery stream if they are like the trout I have been following. When they are stacked on the cold water for extended periods of time and are stressed this is when they are most vulnerable. I am sure that this existed in many other places around the state and were decimated in large part to fishing pressure. Has anyone read Jim Bashlines' book Night Fishing for Trout or George Harvey Memories Patterns and tactics.
In these books you will find examples of the exploitation of migrating trout in a flowing stream / river scenario on the mouths of streams where they meet the larger stream in the heat of summer in the night.
These are the large adult genetically superior trophy trout and at 900 eggs per pound the reproductive potential is too great to be completely overlooked in any scenario even if there is only 5 fish. There never has been any management with them in mind that I am aware of. The future of those fish lies in what you guys do with the knowledge of their existence. Good luck.

If anyone reads this and is interested in pursuing protection for these genetically superior and special trout please P.M. me.
Thanks
 
Mike, I missed that earlier post. I dont have much time to read this site anymore like I used to. But even after reading that, I'll echo what Swattie said, I'd like more specifics so I can try to apply the knowledge elsewhere...which species of forage fish and what behaviors?

Stenonema, great post

 
Thanks Sarce, I was worried with that one. I am passionate about this topic and it is really hard to not go into the depth it deserves. I do not wish to spend the time to write the kind of post that it deserves. I have spent thirty plus years fishing for, studying and protecting trout like these.
 
I'll be sending a PM your way when I get the time. Though I don't know exactly how I'd be able to help, you've spent more time studying this than I've been alive. It is an extremely interesting topic to me though.
 
Stenonema, one of the best posts I've seen on this board. You echo my thoughts exactly.

Browns are amazing fish, and most grossly underestimate their abilities.

And if there is one thing that glares the most, it is about keeping quiet and protecting the spot. Watch who you tell and what pics get seen, as you said, ONE guy can ruin these types of deals.

We live in an amazing state for trout, there is truly amazing trout in so many stream/lake/river systems.

Awesome.
 
I think this thread is ready for a good ol fashioned pcrayin', and probably has been for a while. Where ya at Pat?
 
Stenonema wrote:.

What makes these trout so special and distinct is their adaptations to exploit different niches within the food chain in the watershed on a larger scale. Where they choose to spend their time and when is generated by the successes of previous generations.
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which makes them like any other scottish trout IMHO.

that browns migrate throughout the whole of their range makes them arche-typal - they do always migrate in search of food, cover or cool water if they are able to.

genetically sea run brown trout are identical to resident trout.

whatever brown trout are in the susky system are separated only from the sea by man - by dams, impoundments etc.

which is common wherever they are planted - ponds, lakes, streams or rivers.

i very much agree with the need to protect them, but i don't think they are unique other than to us.

cheers

Mark.
 
Stenonema wrote" You have found something very special here. My advice is be careful who you tell and how much attention you draw while fishing. Local people will pick up on it if they see the same car or fisherman there for a week straight. Migrating fish commonly stack or school. I call it a staging pool. On the way up or on the way out they will stage in a pool (strength in numbers) and then when the time is right move out or up depending. Sometimes this pool will be over a mile up the smaller stream.
One person can destroy this for you."

Well done Stenonema, excellent post.
 
One person can destroy this for you."

too late
 
foxtrapper1972 wrote:
One person can destroy this for you."

too late
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maybe, maybe not.

as streams need friends, maybe some fish do too.

 
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